Paul and Apollonius - Another ridiculous myth being promoted

[TWTY-Admin]

I couldn't help noticing an awful lot of comments on certain Facebook groups regarding a fellow named Apollonius and his supposed relationship to Paul, that I just had to investigate it.

As can be gleaned from the title, the investigation proved to be essentially worthless - just another pack of lies spouted by moronic fools and pseudo "Bible researchers" that should make anyone feel superior in intelligence.

But please, do read on - it should help if you ever come across such lemons.


Paul and Apollonius: Another ridiculous comparison

It came to my attention recently that there is a new tactic (well, regurgitated tactic) regarding trying to discredit Paul/Sha’uwl of Tarsus, and this entails trying to attach him to a Pythagorean Philosopher/miracle worker known as Apollonius of Tyrna. I discovered a few YouTube videos regarding this, and I shall be going through and pointing out the extremely laughable errors, misinformation, and outright lies contained within at least one of them. I may add more later, but they more or less repeat the same fraudulent things. I shall be concentrating mostly on the Apollonius-Paul comparisons, and only go into a few other things they get wrong, but not too detailed.

The video I shall be criticising is the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9npnLdwdjUU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; uploaded by someone named douglasnvideo.
Feel free to watch the full 10 mins, but be warned - it's full of it. Also, the music is very annoying. I wish people would stop doing imbecilic stuff like that.

Anyway, onto the first error that the Video has stated as fact:

1. Paul is a false prophet (28-30 seconds into the video).

Firstly, in order for one to be a “false prophet” they need to utter prophecies that are false. As another thing that such people like to pout is that Paul never actually states anything prophetic, therefore Paul can’t be a false “prophet”, as there’s no prophecy of his to point to, to therefore show that it didn’t come true. What these people seem to want to actually indicate is that Paul is a false teacher, not a prophet (especially as the Tanakh differentiates between the “prophets”: the nabiy/נביא style prophets and the choseh/חֹזה style prophets). If you’re going to criticise something or someone, learn to understand the terms that you’re using. Trust me, it'll help you a lot.

I could mention the error mentioned about 49-50 seconds into the video (the mention of hell), but that’d really take us too far away from the supposed Paul/Apollonius connection, so it is actually...

2. ‘Jesus’ established the ‘churches’ of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, & Laodicea (1:19-26).

Incorrect names aside (you know, especially for the Messianic Jew, Douglas), the Messiah didn’t actually establish any ‘church’ (technically better terms would be assembly, congregation or Ekklesia) bar sending off the disciples to make followers of “every nation” (the Great commission: MattithYah/Matthew 28:16-20). Nevertheless, we have no evidence of any of the Eleven Disciples visiting or going anywhere near the seven assemblies mentioned above: Paul was certainly in Ephesus (Acts 19), and church tradition places Yahuchanon/John there, but neither are mentioned as the ones who established them; they just went there. We know very little of Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia or Laodicea, apart from their mention in Revelation chapters 2-4, and only Paul refers to them in one of his letters (technically, one of his attributed letters - most scholars don’t think that Paul wrote the Epistle to the Colossians, however some do); but again, he isn’t mentioned as their founder.

Outside Revelation, Thyatira is mentioned only in passing in Acts 16:14, where the women Lydia originates from; whether she then went off and established the congregation in Thyatira we have no way of knowing. Regarding the remaining cities mentioned (Smyrna, Pergamos, Sardis & Philadelphia) they aren’t mentioned anywhere else outside Revelation, so anything regarding their “establishment” is only mentioned by the Early Church Fathers, and they really don’t give us much to go on. Nevertheless, Smyrna, Pergamos, Sardis & Philadelphia are all within a 100 mile radius of Ephesus, so really, there are only two candidates for whom could have “established” them - Paul or Yahuchanon/John. But then again, there’s no reason to think that either of the two established them - they could’ve been around for several years before either of the two had even approached Ephesus, never mind visit their neighbouring cities.

In conclusion: the video’s statement in 1:19 is incorrect: ‘Jesus’ didn’t establish the ‘churches’ in these places, and we have no evidence of who actually did.

3. Paul established the ‘churches’ of Crete, Thessalonica, Colossi, Philippi, Galatia, Corinth and Rome (1:27)

Even Paul in his letter to the Romans indicates that he himself did not “establish” the church in Rome - it was there long before he’d even thought about going to it. The same is true for Colossae; there is no evidence that Paul visited Colossae either before or after his apparent letter to them. However, it isn’t all that far from Ephesus (120 miles east), so he may have taken a trip there. Nevertheless, there’s no evidence that he did, so there’s definitely no evidence that he “established” the ‘church’ there. Now Paul did preach in Thessalonica for three Sabbath days according to Acts 17, but then had to flee due to the Jewish authorities becoming jealous, so Paul really didn’t have time to “establish” a full on assembly there. But I guess we can let Douglas have this one. The same is true for Philippi and Corinth. However, Crete, unlike Thessalonica, Colossae, Philippi, Corinth and Rome is a land, not a city like the four places above mentioned, and there’s no evidence that Paul actually “established” any ‘churches’ in Crete. According to the Letter to Titus, it was actually Titus who was doing the establishment of assemblies (Titus 1:5) because Paul was actually in Nicopolis (Titus 3:12). Last but not least is “Galatia” which again, wasn’t a city, but a huge Roman province that covered almost 8500 square miles. Oh, and Paul never founded any ‘churches’ there either (he also didn’t write the Letter to the Galatians either - http://tinyurl.com/63eusmp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

So, Douglas got three out of seven correct in his statement here. But that doesn’t really help as he is trying to state that the two sets of seven cows mentioned by Pharaoh in Genesis 41:2-4 and 17-21 are the seven ‘churches’ of ‘Jesus’ being eaten by those of Paul. But as we learned above and here, he’s essentially only got 3 out of 14 correct, therefore rendering his fanciful idea rather moot. It also doesn’t help that Joseph already explained the meaning of the two sets of cows in Genesis 41:25-27. Oops!

4. ‘Paul’ is an alias of Apollonius (1:37-47)
I really don’t know exactly where to start with this - mainly because it’s obviously absurd, but hey, absurd doesn’t always mean wrong. Although in this case, it does. As there’s no evidence or source for such a thing given, this is essentially a statement backed up with...nothing; nothing at all.

5. Apollonius was a student at Asklepius in Agaea, Greece (1:37-47)

There are, in these 10 words, three things wrong with it. Firstly: there’s no town or city called Asklepius; secondly, the Aegae in Apollonius’ story (which Douglas misspells) wasn’t in Greece, but near Tyana in Turkey; and thirdly, Apollonius wasn’t a student there, or really, anywhere. At the start of the text at 1:37-47, Douglas states that he discovered these things whilst “researching Paul”. I must wonder exactly where he was looking, because they obviously hadn't got their facts straight, and Douglas doesn't appear to have checked them.

Now for some actual facts: “Asklepius” is more commonly spelt Asclepius, and Asclepius is actually the god of medicine and healing in ancient Greek religion - http://tinyurl.com/n42a7e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - and there, oddly, is no town or city named after him. The city of Aegae in Apollonius’ story (as outlined in the Life of Apollonius - more on this later on) wasn’t all that far from Apollonius’ actual home town of Tyana; and Apollonius spent more time in Asia Minor than in Greece.

6. Apollonius planted churches in Asia Minor (1:48-59)

Starting the actual line at 1:48 with “Facts about Apollonius”, Douglas immediately goes into spouting nonsense - again. I have read through the entire translation of the Life of Apollonius (see http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/apollonius ... .html#%A71" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - and again, more on this later), and found no mention of the word ‘church’ anywhere; not even “assembly” or “congregation”, never mind Apollonius planting or “establishing” anything.

7. Apollonius travelled with a man named Titus just like Paul

Again, utter nonsense. The Titus in Apollonius’ story wasn’t a travelling companion, but was actually The Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Caesar Vespasianus Augustus (http://tinyurl.com/2fh7ram" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), and the meeting between Apollonius and Titus was supposedly after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE - at least 6-7 years after Paul’s death, making what Douglas said in point 4 above even more absurd (See The Life of Apollonius, book 6 chapters 29-34 http://tinyurl.com/7m8xvoo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Titus was, like many names nowadays, a common one. People with the same name are more or less not the same person - they just share the same name. You know - basic logic.

8. He [Apollonius] was associated with a man named Demetrius just like Paul (1:48-159)

Demetrius in Apollonius’ story was more than an associate - they met several times throughout books 4-8, with Apollonius rescuing Demetrius’ student Menippus from a female Vampire (yes - a vampire). This Demetrius was a Cynic philosopher from Corinth. The Demetrius mentioned in Acts 19:24 and 38 (Demetrius is never mentioned by Paul in any of his letters) was actually a silversmith from Ephesus, who made sculptures of the goddess Artemis and tried to have Paul captured and made a public example of for preaching against the polytheistic gods of Ephesus. So Paul is hardly “associated” with Demetrius - Demetrius just happened to be one of the names of the Silversmiths at Ephesus. There is also a Demetrius mentioned in 3 John 12, whom is most certainly associated with Yahuchanon/John (be it delegate or elder); are Yahuchanon/John and Apollonius alias’ of each other too? I think not.

9. He [Apollonius] was associated with a man named Stephanus just like Paul (2:00-)

Whilst there is certainly a man named Stephanus in Apollonius’ story, he isn’t an associate of Apollonius at all - he is actually the man who helped instigate the murder of Emperor Domitian in 96 CE (See http://tinyurl.com/7p86htw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;); the events of which Apollonius apparently witnessed in a vision from Ephesus (Life of Apollonius Book 8 Chapters 25-26 http://tinyurl.com/6mapo4y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) Are people really trying to equate this Stephanus with the that mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 16? I should point out that Stephanus/Stephanas are both variants of Stephanos/Stephen, a man also named this was murdered as recorded by Acts 7. It was a very, very common Greek name, and quite a lot of people have had it since (even me ).

The apparent “association” isn’t really an association - oddly enough, the Life of Apollonius has got some historical facts in it - like Stephanus stabbing the Emperor Domitian. Stephanus wasn’t Apollonius’ associate though, nor was he Paul’s (Paul had been dead almost 30 years by the time the Emperor Domitian was assassinated).

10. He [Apollonius] had a scribe named Demas just like Paul (2:00-)

I have searched all over for this apparent “Demas” in any actual book regarding Apollonius, and can’t find a single mention of anyone named Demas, never mind him being a scribe. There is a Damis, but Damis and Demas don’t share the same letters in their names. If anyone has any information where Demas actually appears in an account of Apollonius, please let me know.

11. He [Apollonius] fought wild beasts at Ephesus just like Paul (2:00-something)

It took me a while to find something regarding “wild beasts” and “Ephesus”, and the closest thing I came to was at the end of Book 4 Chapter 10, where a plague has broken out in Asia Minor, engulfing Smyrna and Ephesus. In Ephesus, Apollonius leads the Ephesians to the theatre, where they stumble upon an old man, begging, referred to as an ‘mendicant’. Immediately Apollonius tells the Ephesians to pick up stones and stone the guy. The Ephesians are reluctant, but then they notice that the old mendicant is a demon, and so they stone him to death. Then Apollonius gets them to take the stones away from the “wild animal” they (the Ephesians, not Apollonius) had slain, only to find that the demon had switched places with a Molossian dog (See the story here: http://tinyurl.com/6pgsx4d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

So essentially, Apollonius didn’t fight with “wild beasts” at Ephesus - but had a demon stoned by the Ephesians. Furthermore, Paul’s quip in 1 Cor 15:32 about fighting with “beasts” at Ephesus is hotly debated - does he actually mean wild animals, or is he being insulting to a group of humans? Nevertheless, the two events (or lack thereof) aren’t the same, nor do they even mirror each other.

12. Apollonius escaped from prison by a supposed miracle just like Paul

Here Douglas is referring to Acts 16:16-40, where an earthquake happens and opens the jail cell doors. Paul doesn’t actually escape from the jail here, but instead stays and saves the jailer’s life.

In Apollonius’ story however, Apollonius isn’t in fetters; an earthquake doesn’t release him; he doesn’t save someone’s life. After being imprisoned by the Emperor Domitian for denouncing Tyrants, Domitian is advised to have Apollonius transferred to a fetterless “jail” - more or less like a detainee centre. Apollonius then drafts a rather long defensive speech, but before he could actually give it, Domitian apparently forgets why exactly Apollonius is in court, and the actual point of the trial. Apollonius is then acquitted, and walks out of the court after disappearing in front of them. (See Life of Apollonius Book 8 chapters 1-9 http://tinyurl.com/76ekeyu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

As you can see, that Apollonius “escapes” a jail cell is a complete fabrication - it has no correlation with the story in Acts 16:16-40. I should also note that Acts 12:1-18 notes that Peter also miraculously escapes a jail cell; Peter is jailed by Herod after Passover; an Angel appears in Peter’s jail cell, wakes him up, removes the chains, blinds the guards eyes, and Peter miraculously walks to Mark’s house. Is Peter also one of Apollonius’ alias’ too? Paul/Peter/Apollonius/John all apparently have things in common: they must all be the same person! (C’mon conspiracy nut-jobs - I know you’d just love to lap something like this up).

13. Apollonius started a religious community in Corinth, as did Paul

Whilst the Life of Apollonius mentions Corinth several times, I found nothing regarding Apollonius starting a ‘religious community’ there or, in fact, anywhere for that matter. Numerous famous people have visited Corinth, and many have started a following of some god or other thing there - I doubt they’re all the same person, so this really is a ridiculous thing to even point out (despite the fact that, you know - it isn’t actually true).

14. Apollonius was shipwrecked like Paul

As per the above supposed “relationship” between Apollonius and Paul, I found no mention of Apollonius being shipwrecked. There’s a good reason why you’re supposed to give sources for what you state - it’s so that people can verify them quickly, and not have to go traipsing through 8000+ words to find what supposedly happened. Until a reference can be brought forth, this is nothing more than a lie.

Now, there are numerous other things wrong with Douglas’ YouTube video (the fact that he spouts the brain farts of Robert Eisenmen about the writings in the Dead Sea Scrolls as “truth” is one major one - The Dead Sea scrolls community writings predate Paul by over 50 years, so contra R.E., they can’t be about James or Paul), but I just wanted to concentrate on the supposed Apollonius-Paul connection.

As we’ve seen: there isn’t one. Not a single thing Douglas has said regarding Apollonius is true - not a single thing. Douglas is as much a liar as he claims Paul to be.

There are others that spout the same nonsense that Douglas has regarding Apollonius and Paul, one of which is none other than Achayra S/Dorothy Murdoch of http://www.truthbeknown.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; fame, as well as her books The Christ Conspiracy and Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. She has the following page pointing out supposed “correlations” between Paul and Apollonius (as well as Jesus): http://www.truthbeknown.com/apollonius.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let’s have a quick look at the list of the supposed Paul-Apollonius connections:

1. Raised in Tarsus; 2. Religiously precocious as a child; 3. Claimed to be a speaker of Hebrew; 4. Had a disciple named Demas from Asia Minor; 5. Had an associate named Titus; 6. Associated with a Demetrius; 7. Associated with a Stephanus; 8. Followed abstinence and asceticism; 9. Wore long hair and robes; 10. Was unmarried and childless; 11. Went to Jerusalem; 12. Spent much time at Antioch; 13. Made missionary journeys around Mediterranean; 14. Travelled to the East for three years, where he was taught by external forces; 15. Fought "wild beasts" at Ephesus; 16. Founded a religious community at Corinth; 17. Had his life threatened; 18. Condemned by Roman emperor; 19. Miraculously escaped prison; 20. Was shipwrecked.

As can be seen, even Ms. Murdoch makes the same baseless claims that Douglas has done, providing no proof for the things she’s stated here. We’ve already seen that points 4, 5, 6, 7, 15, 16, 19 & 20 are all bogus and have absolutely no historical basis for them in Apollonius’ life. I guess that leaves me to answer 1-3, 8-14, 17-18.

Point 1: Apollonius was educated in Tarsus from the age of 14 (Life of Apollonius Book 1, Chapter 6); Paul was born in Tarsus, but whether he was there for a long enough time before he was sent to study under Gamiliel is completely unknown. This is hardly a correlation however - pretty sure quite a lot of people lived in Tarsus at the time.

Point 2: I’m not sure how one can determine how “precocious” Paul was as a child - we know very, very little about his childhood. We know quite a bit about his adulthood, but whether he had “developed certain abilities” younger than most people is essentially incapable of being proven. This is therefore a moot and/or false thing to state.

Point 3: Again, I searched through the Life of Apollonius and found no reference at all to Hebrew, never mind Apollonius speaking it. Also, Paul did speak Hebrew if we’re to take the claims of Acts seriously (Acts 21:40; 22:2; 26:14), he didn’t just “claim” to speak Hebrew. Again, this is a false correlation.

Point 8: ...Paul followed abstinence from what, exactly? Sex/Food/Alcohol? If from sex, then yes. So did the Messiah too, but I doubt we’re going to say that Paul and Yahushua are the same either. The same goes for asceticism. Again, an awful lot of people in the world at that time practised some form of abstinence of asceticism - it’s hardly worth mentioning.

Point 9: Where on earth does it state that Paul had long hair and wore robes? The fact that Paul speaks against men having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14 is more than adequate evidence to show that this is a completely moronic thing to state.

Point 10: Again, we don’t know much about Paul’s pre-conversion life. There are many speculations that he was a widower, and there’s no mention whether he and his wife had had a child that had died. This entire point is speculative in nature, and therefore shouldn’t’ve even been mentioned. It lacks evidence either way.

Point 11: There is no mention of Apollonius going to Jerusalem - anywhere. Jerusalem is mentioned in the Life of Apollonius, but only in connection with the Emperors Titus and Vespasian, who are mentioned regarding the siege of Jerusalem between 66-70 CE. There is absolutely no mention that Apollonius even went into Israel/Judea, never mind Jerusalem.

Point 12: Which Antioch we talking about? There’re at least three different ones that this point could be referring to, and I don’t know which one is supposed to be the one mentioned.

Point 13: Whilst both did indeed travel extensively, I don’t think Apollonius’ travels can be called “Missionary Journey’s”. Apollonius also travelled much further east than Paul does - Paul pretty much goes around the cities among the coast lines of Asia Minor (Turkey), Greece and Italy. He doesn’t go to the same places that Apollonius does.

Point 14: As I point out in The Great Galatians Debate (http://tinyurl.com/63eusmp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) - Paul didn’t write Galatians, and so Paul never made any claim of going “east”.

Points 17 & 18: I’m combining the last two as they’re more or less moot points. Many people had their life threatened, and quite a few by Emperors. I don’t even know why these two are even mentioned - the two Emperors in question aren’t the same one!

As can quite easily be seen, Ms. Murdoch’s list is just as stupid as this YouTube video. Both state things with no credible sources (or any sources in Douglas’ case), and when one checks the one and only major source regarding Apollonius’ life, the Life of Apollonius, we discover that the entire Life of Apollonius was written around 220 CE by a sophist named Philostratus, on the commission of the Empress Julia Domna. So really, if there’s any borrowing going on, it has to be the other way around - Paul’s life was recorded long before Philostratus was even born in 170 CE. It’s also widely accepted that Philostratus’ Life of Apollonius is far more colourful than historical.

Conlcusion
What’s really left to say? All the supposed Paul-Apollonius correlations have absolutely no backing to them whatsoever, and those that spout such nonsense have probably never actually read the only novelistic biographical account of Apollonius, which shows that those who try to spout the Apollonius-Paul myth are complete and utter fools who really aren’t worth the time of day.

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Feel free to comment. I'll be posting a link to this free, open thread on Douglas' YouTube. Hopefully he'll be smart enough to take the YT video down.

[Rob]

It's amazing what people will do to slander someone else - I have seen so many threats attached to the videos too " God is testing you, what are you going to do" etc etc.

It's also amazing how people who oppose this view are instantly cast and attacked as pro-paul.

[TWTY-Admin]

What isn't amazing is that no one who promotes the "Apollonius is Paul" myth has yet to respond to this thread.

Plus, essentially it's easier to threaten someone than it is to actual answer their points or questions

[Rob]

The silence is deafening.

[Rob]

still being deafened...

[TWTY-Admin]

I responded again on Douglas' video. See who bothers to come here and read.

Edit#1: I and Douglas are currently exchanging comments on YT. He isn't answering a single thing I brought up, but just seems to repeat himself constantly, giving no source or basis for his claims.

When you read this Douglas, try responding to this actual thread. You'll have more than 500 characters to answer my points. You don't even have to join - it's a completely open thread and sub-forum, allowing anyone to post

[Rob]

Replies documented on YT oldest at the top to most recent at the bottom:

douglasnvideo

@TheWaytoYahuweh Pt 1 a false prophet is anyone who teaches away from Torah Deut 13:1-10, Paul did this Acts 21:21 & Acts 21:28. Pt 2 Yeshua the seven lamp stands" of "seven churches" in Revelation. Pt 3 Peter is not first pope. Paul is code name for Simon Magus. Pt4 Paul, aka Apollonius “Apollos” 1 Corth 3:4-6 Pt5 Aegae was an ancient Greek city in Aeolis (part of modern North-West Turkey). Pt 6 How about the word “Temples?” (to be continued) See my site lasttrumpet org Paul is a Pharisse

TheWaytoYahuweh

@douglasnvideo Paul was accused of teaching against Torah, yet none of those people there in Acts 21:28 brought any evidence that he had done so. Your reply to pt2 doesn't make sense. I never said Peter was the first pope, and Simon Magnus is not a code name for Paul or vice-versa. I showed that Apollonius and Paul aren't the same as you incorrectly claim. I already pointed out where Aegae actually was. And Apollonius visited Temples, he didn't 'plant' any. I suggest you re-read the thread again

douglasnvideo

@TheWaytoYahuweh In Acts 21:21 Paul taught away from circumcision. Paul was charged with teaching people away from the law.That punishment is for death and why the wanted to stone Paul. See Acts 23:30. I proved from 1st Cor 3:3-6 Apollos is speaking of Apollonius. From Codex Bezae scholars also agree that the name "Apollos" is indeed "Apollonius." And that Apollonius had visited Corinth and established a church/school there, according to all historical records of the time. Paul is Apollonius.

TheWaytoYahuweh

@douglasnvideo Are we reading the same thing? Acts 21:21 isn't Paul saying anything, so how can he be the one teaching away from circumcision? Stephen in Acts 6-7 was also accused of doing something that Paul is also accused of, yet no one brought any proof of their accusations - just like you. And what 'historical' records are you referring to regarding Apollonius? The only one we actually have is the Life of, which mentions nothing of him establishing anything in Corinth. What is your source?

Furthermore, Bezae is but one manuscript, from the FIFTH CENTURY CE. This makes it about as authoritative as the Textus Receptus (that is, not authoritative in the slightest). Saying that, I actually haven't seen where Bezae supposedly has Apollonius rather than Apollos. Do you have an image for us all to clarify this?

douglasnvideo

@TheWaytoYahuweh James already knew the answer to James question to Paul in Acts 21:21 " Paul never denied it." The Jews at the Temple who heard Paul teach said Paul taught away from the law. Jews don’t bring up charges against someone lightly, they know the recourse for bringing up false charges.Paul in Acts 15:2, is still bothered by the circumcision issue. 1st Cor 3:3-6 Apollos is speaking of Apollonius. From Codex Bezae scholars also agree that the name "Apollos" is indeed "Apollonius."

TheWaytoYahuweh

@douglasnvideo Why are you just repeating yourself? I mentioned the charges the Jews brought against Stephen in Acts 6-7; he never denied them yet Luke feels the need to call them "false witnesses" Acts 6:13. Seems to me that these Jews were lying, as were the ones who were spreading the false rumour that Paul taught the Jews not to circumcise their children. Further evidence that they were lying is that they'd said that Paul had taken a Gentile into the Temple, although he hadn't.

Furthermore, if scholars did 'agree' that Apollos should be Apollonius, then those that do the Nestle-Aland and UBS Greek NT's haven't been convinced, for Acts 18:24 still has Απολλως. As I said - Bezae has no authority here. You also haven't answered most of my other points I pointed out: where's Demas? What is your source for Apollonius planting a school in Corinth or anywhere else? Where are these wild beasts he fought? All you are doing is lying, nothing more; nothing less

douglasnvideo

@TheWaytoYahuweh Is Paul a Pharisee? Game over!

svgrobski

@douglasnvideo How can Paul be both Apollonius and a pharisee?

[TWTY-Admin]

My latest reply to Douglas is the following:

@douglasnvideo As svgrobski asked, how can Paul be both "Apollonius" AND a "Pharisee"? He's either one or the other - he can't be both (especially as Apollonius is never said to have come into contact with a Jew of any kind). You're also not answering a single thing I've said. You have provided no source for anything at all. You are a liar and a coward, Douglas. I say a coward because despite all the evidence, you still refuse to recant your lies, like all cowards do. I suggest you read Rev 21:8

Edit#1:

It continues

@TheWaytoYahuweh Is Paul a Pharisee?

@douglasnvideo No. He's dead - he's not really alive to 'be' anything. Was Nicodemus a Pharisee? How about Joseph of Arimathea? How about those mentioned in Acts 15:1 & 5? Are you an American? Do you live in California?

If you want, I've got several other non-important questions I could ask you. You on the other hand need to answer my points properly, and provide a source for your claims. Or be brave, and admit that you're wrong. Research properly next time, so you won't be shown up.

Edit #2:

It is a very important question. Is Paul a Pharisee?

As you haven't answered a single one of my questions (all of which were asked before this current regurgitation on your part) or brought forth any source for your claims, I don't see a need to answer anything else you ask of me.

Furthermore, the Messiah warned us against the doctrines of the Pharisees and Sadducees - not individual Pharisees or Sadducees. And as it happens, Paul didn't expound any Pharisaical or Sadducean doctrine, so your question isn't important at all.

Edit #3:

I have answered your questions. When it comes to answering my questions you are always evasive and it’s telling. Anyone following this tread can see that. Paul professed being an apostle, there are only 12 apostles, Rev 21:14 Paul is a liar. Paul as a teacher, professed being a Pharisee, a few times.(Phl 3:5; as touching the law, a Pharisee;) We are commanded by Yeshua to reject all Pharisaic teachers. James with letters of the Dead Sea Scrolls called Paul " A spouter of lies."

Apollonius AKA Saul converted to Pharisaic Judaism as he aspired to marry the High Priests daughter (She had a huge dowry). She refused to marry Saul. Paul was reported being bitter about having to be circumcised. The Pharisees teaches a lesser Torah for the gentiles called the Noahide laws. Paul taught a lesser Torah and got Paul in trouble see. Acts 21:21 Acts 21:28 God's Torah teaches there is just one Torah for everyone. Exodus 12:49. James called Paul, "a spouter of lies."

No you haven't. Not a single one. Where is your answer to my question of where 'Demas' is in Apollonius' story? Where is your answer to where I asked you to provide evidence for Apollonius starting a 'school' in Corinth? Where is your answer of providing an image of Codex Bezae having Απολλωνιος rather than Απολλως? These are but a few of the questions I asked you which you haven't answered. There's also points 7-14 in the thread for you to even attempt an answer at.

The liar and coward here is you. Your entire video here is wrong because you didn't bother actually doing any "research" - you just repeated other peoples lies and fraudulent statements. The Messiah didn't mention anything about Pharisaic "teachers", not to mention that both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were Pharisees, and Luke in Acts 15:5 mentions many Pharisees as being members of the early Ecclesia.

The Dead Sea Scrolls non-Biblical manuscripts predate both James and Paul's *births* by 50-100 years. James doesn't ever refer to Paul as "a spouter of lies". Several Jews falsely accused Paul of things he hadn't said or done, the same way that they had done previously with Stephen and the Messiah Himself. And you should really not read anything written by Robert Eisenman. He's as a big a liar and fraud as the Pope. Stop spouting lies, and stop repeating other peoples lies too.

I've also given more than enough evidence to destroy this supposed Apollonius-Paul myth and fraud that you are promoting here. For those who've yet to realise how wrong Douglas here is, I suggest you pop over to tinyurl com / 8ysqd5y and read the thread there. I am also posting all the comments from here there as well, so you can read them in context and see that Douglas hasn't replied to anything properly.

Edit #4:

None of the apostles of Yeshua are of Pharisees! Yeshua taught and warned about Pharisaic teachings in lots of places. Matt 16:12 beware of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Paul is a Pharisee and never stopped professed being one.. Botton line, Matthew 5:20"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness (true Torah only observance) exceeds the righteousness (of Oral Tradition teachers) of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven

Why are you repeating things I've already stated? I'd already said the following: "Furthermore, the Messiah warned us against the doctrines of the Pharisees and Sadducees" however, as stated previously, he didn't speak against individual Pharisees or Sadducees themselves. I also never said that the 'apo9stles' were Pharisees - I mention Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea as Pharisees, which Matt, Mark, Luke and John make very clear to us.

I am working on a responsey to your remarks. You F up big time! Also I have easily proven you a liar; I can't wait to post it. I am a busy person. Look for it to be posted soon.

I too am a busy person; I await your actual response.

Here's hoping this isn't just a fob off. I was getting tied of not being able to do fuller replies, and it would be good to have something longer to respond to

Edit #5: Two final comments, hopefully

Right you are, you never said any of the apostles are Pharisees. That’s is my point. So what if it states Nicodemus is a Pharisee. What is your point? Yeshua told Nicodemais to repent. Paul claimed to be a Pharisee, Phil 3:5 personally trained by Gamaliel, puffed up about that fact. (Acts 22:3 Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers ) Paul the Pharisee ran around teaching people fasley and that got Paul into a lot of trouble for Paul's false teachings

As I said, I await your actual response. YouTube comments aren't long enough for a proper discussion to be had. I will add however that the Messiah never told Nicodemus to repent, or stop being a Pharisee. You can also answer that in your much fuller response that everyone who's been following this is anticipating. Discussions are much better when there isn't a 500 character limit 

[pastordouglas]

Shalom, my name is Pastor Douglas Nicholson. I am the author of the YT video called “PAUL THE FALSE APOSTLE "THE BIG TEST" from God” I am an expert on the false apostle Paul.

I am going to bring TWTY-Admin arguments to a quick close here.
TWTY-Admin is puffed up like the false apostle Paul. TWTY-Admin who is pro Pauline and is going to follow Paul into hell if TWTY-Admin does not repent of his ways. Because of TWTY-Admin is taking a pro Paul position and he thinks he can challenge things that I had brought up on my YT study about Paul. http://youtu.be/9npnLdwdjUU. TWTY-Admin has a lot of talking points and I will address them as I can. For now I will just deal with point one, what is a false prophet.

What is a false prophet? I go into great detail at the start of my YT video and explain this clearly and cite Bible Scripture. The charges brought against Paul was for “teaching away from” keeping of the commandments of God and that’s what makes Paul a false prophet. Deut 13:1-10. This is a capital crime and punishment is by death. TWTY-Admin is trying to mislead you big time against me and I can prove this. Once you see this fact you will know the rest of TWTY-Admin points are crappy and divisive as well.

There are a couple of categories of a false prophets found in Torah. A false prophet can be one who’s a prediction doesn’t come true but this not what Paul is being charged with? Paul is being charge with teaching people away from keeping the commandments of God. Acts 21:21 & Acts 21:28 A passage used from Torah for those who predictions don’t come true is from Deuteronomy 18:22" when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (This is not a capital crime; you are just not to respect “fear” the prophet of false predictions) So TWTY-Adminy now been proven wrong on his first point and sets the tone for his other bogus points.

Now proving Paul the false prophet for “teaching away from Torah” which is a capital crime of which Paul is being charged with.
Here we read where James, the brother of our Lord is asking Paul about Paul’s false teachings. James already knows the answers to his question and wants to see if Paul will deny it in any fashion.
Acts 21:21 "but they have been informed about you (Paul) that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses (the law), saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul is so busted for teaching away from the commandments of God and Paul never denied it.

Paul is also busted in the Temple by eye and ear witnesses, Jews from Asia who heard Paul teach there.
Acts 21:27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him (Paul) in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him (Paul),
Act 21:28crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man (Paul) who teaches all men everywhere against the people(the Jews), the law(Torah), and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
Act 21:29(For they had previously seen Trophimus (the gentile) the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

You can read where the eye and ear witness are bringing up false prophet charges against Paul. Also you can never bring gentiles into the Temple back then and even in the future, read (Ezekiel 44:9 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart (one has to be Torah observant) or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.) We also can easily infer from Ezekiel 44:9 that the law has not been done away with as Paul falsely teaches in (Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.)

So we have eye and ear witnesses against Paul and also Paul’s writings that testifying against Paul as being a false prophet who teaches away from keeping the commandments of God. This is capital crime.
TWTY-Admin is trying to mislead you by lying about what charges are brought up against Paul the false apostle of Rev 2:2. The punishment for lying under oath TWTY-Admin is very serious one and all Torah observant people know this.

Deut 19:18"And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,
Deut 19:19"then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
Deut 19:20"And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.
Deut 19:21"Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Paul is also a professed being a Pharisee read (Philippians 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;) Paul proudly mentions being a Pharisee even after Paul’s Damascus experience from (Act 23:6 he (Paul) cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged!") also in (Acts 26:5 "They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.)

Now our Lord Yeshua gave much warning to Yeshua’s disciples regarding the all the Pharisees, Paul is a Pharisee. The Pharisees are a full blown cult by definition, it’s a replacement theology; the Pharisees place rabbinic law above “God’s laws, Torah.” It was rabbinic law “Takanot” that was used to put Yeshua to death for Yeshua claiming to be the Messiah of Israel. The Paul the Pharisee and all Pharisees are called "sons of this world" "sons of darkness" "sons of the wicked one." Matt 13:38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom (Torah observant only follers of Yeshua), but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. (Paul is a tare)

There is nothing above Torah and you cannot add or subtract from God’s laws. Deut 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Yeshua teaching on the Pharisees Matt 16:12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Also Yeshua taught this for everyone. Matthew 5:20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness (true Torah only observance) exceeds the righteousness (of Oral Tradition teachers) of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Paul is a Pharisee, the Lord commands us to reject all teachings of all the Pharisees. Are you doing this?

So for point one I have proven that TWTY-Admin is trying to mislead people. Paul is proven to teach people away from the need for being Torah observant. Acts 21:21, Acts 21:28. This is capital crime, punishment by death. Paul never stopped professed being a Pharisee (a full blown cult member, a tare) Yeshua warned everyone to fully reject the teachings (doctrine) of the Pharisees, this includes Paul the Pharisee. If you don full reject false Torah teachers like Paul then the Lord will allow you to follow Paul into hell. Deut 13:1-10. Paul ministry is a “test” from God, to see if you’re going to truly be Torah observant only, see Deut 13:3

I will address other points as time permits. I have a ministry http://www.lasttrumpet.org that keeps me pretty busy. Be sure to get the book, Jesus Words Only by Del Tondo, Bible scholar, attorney and an expert of the exegesis of Scripture bar none. http://www.jesuswordsonly.com

Pastor Douglas Nicholson / Torah observant only / Last Trumpet Org Ministries / Newport Beach, CA

[Rob]

Can I just add for the record I predicted pretty much the first paragraph above

It's also amazing how people who oppose this view are instantly cast and attacked as pro-paul.

You made my evening

[willbrinsonferguson]

Talk about one whom speaks FASLELY, A.K.A. - Pastor Douglas Nicholson!!!

Below in brief I state why the Apostle Shawul [Powlos] is a true Apostle and Douglas Nicholson is in actuality one of many of Sawtawn' FALSE TEACHER?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When Shawul [Powlos] was first saved, he learned directly from the Adon Y'hoshuah Himself.
{Galatians1:1}
Shawul, an Apostle, not from men nor through man, but through Y'hoshuah The Anointed One
and Eloheem the Father who raised Him from the dead.

Later Shawul goes to see Shimeon Kafe [Simon Peter] for 15 days to verify what he has learned.
{Galatians1:18}
Then after three years I went up to Yerushalayim [Jerusalem] to inquire of Kafe, and remained with him fifteen days.

Shawul makes claim that the 'same One' who was commissioning Kafe to the Yehudeem [a.k.a.-Jews],
was commissioning him to the gentiles.
{Galatians 2: 7-8}
For He that was mighty in Kafe in the apostleship over the circumcision, the same was mighty in me among the gentiles

And at that time Shawul receives approval from Yahakobe [James], Kafe [Peter], and Yahu-Khawnawn [John].
{Galatians 2:9}
and therefore when Yahakobe, Kafe, and Yahu-Khawnawn, which seemed to be pillars,
perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the righthands,
and agreed with us that we should preach among the heathen, and they among the Yehudeem:

So far it is only Shawul claiming that the other Apostles back him as a True Apostle, yet here now we see that Kafe [Peter] verifies Shawul' teachings.
{2 Kafe [2 Peter] 3:15}
and consider that the longsuffering of our Adon is salvation; as also our beloved brother Shawul,
according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

And he (Kafe) says that those who distort what Shawul has said, do so to their own destruction.
{2 Kafe [Peter] 3:16}
yea, almost in every epistle, speaking of such things: among which are many things hard to be understood:
which they that are unlearned and unstable pervert, as they do other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Kafe, Yahakobe, and Yahu-Khawnawn having been with Y'hoshuah on earth were in agreement with what Shawul preached. Shawul learned directly from Y'hoshuah The Anointed One. He verifies what he has learned with Kafe, Yahakobe, and Yahu-Khawnawn. Kafe, Yahakobe, and Yahu-Khawnawn were in agreement with what Shawul proclaimed.
{Galatians 1:8-9}
But even if we, or a Messenger [Malawk/Angel] from Shawmah [Heaven], preach any other gospel [good news] to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

According to the Epistles above we have but two choices, believe either the testimony of Kafe, Yahakobe, and Yahu-Khawnawn to be of The Truth - or believe Douglas Nicholson (a preacher ACTUALLY ORDAINED BY MEN, not by Y'hoshuah Himself as Shawul was).

If we throw out Shawul as a False Prophet then we have to throw out Kafe whom said he was a true Apostle. Then the snow ball effect kicks in and we have to disreguard all the other Aposltes that backed Kafe as ones proclaiming false teachers to be True Apostles.

Now I am not saying that Douglas Nicholson willfully honors Sawtawn by preaching against Shawul as an Apostle, but at the least I am saying here is that apparently Douglas Nicholson is ignorantly misunderstanding what Shawul had actually taught within his writings whereby as Kafe put it in his writings {2 Kafe [Peter] 3:16} they that are unlearned and unstable pervert, ... ... ..., unto their own destruction.

And now for the sake of further edification I tell all The Truth - Shawul taught TORAH!!! Unlearned men misunderstanding his writings do either one of two things - they either proclaim a different gospel other than what The True Apostles taught or they proclaim that Shawul was not a True Apostle and throw out half of the Epistles proclaiming Y'hoshuah as The Anointed One of The Torah. Yet either way they are mistaken as Shawul not only clearly taught TORAH, but he proclaimed that Y'hoshuah upheld Torah observance as well.

[StevePaige]

I don't know if using Galatians as proof material would be your best course of rebuttal. While I am definitely not a biblical scholar, I do take the 'new' testament with a grain of sand. As the owner of this site has pointed out, Galatians doesn't even measure up to Ephesians scholarly test and it isn't considered an epistle from Paul.

That being said I do take the view that the only scriptures that Yehushua quoted were from the Torah, Prophets & Writings (properly translated) and are the only ones we need. I might throw Revelation in with that in that I believe that it is inspired also.

When I look at the Pauline letters, there are passages that seem as he is condemning the Torah while there are others that seem to be affirming. When looking at the history of the 'new' testament I can see many issues.

Salvation will never be from Paul nor any of the Apostles, so follow Yahuweh and Yahushua will provide the means to enter into eternity with the Father.

[TWTY-Admin]

Shalom, my name is Pastor Douglas Nicholson. I am the author of the YT video called “PAUL THE FALSE APOSTLE "THE BIG TEST" from God” I am an expert on the false apostle Paul.

Calling yourself an "expert" is quite funny here. You're no expert on anything, which everyone who reads your post and watches your YT vids are able to see.

I am going to bring TWTY-Admin arguments to a quick close here.

First of all, it's either "Stephen" or "TWTY-Admin" - not "Mr" anything.

TWTY-Admin is puffed up like the false apostle Paul. TWTY-Admin who is pro Pauline and is going to follow Paul into hell if TWTY-Admin does not repent of his ways. Because of TWTY-Admin is taking a pro Paul position and he thinks he can challenge things that I had brought up on my YT study about Paul. http://youtu.be/9npnLdwdjUU. TWTY-Admin has a lot of talking points and I will address them as I can. For now I will just deal with point one, what is a false prophet.

As Rob foretold above, your first accusation against me for pointing out your flaws is to attack me for being "pro-Paul", when I'm not. I'm pro telling the truth and using facts and evidence to prove what I say, regardless of whom it's about.

As I never said a single word in defence of Paul or supposed Pauline doctrine, you have essentially become a 'shatan' - a false accuser.

What is a false prophet? I go into great detail at the start of my YT video and explain this clearly and cite Bible Scripture.

You don't go into "great detail" now, do you? A 10 min long video isn't "great" nor "detailed". You are bigging yourself up with a delusion of grandeur, and yet you have the audacity to refer to me as "puffed up"? How hypocritical of you.

The charges brought against Paul was for “teaching away from” keeping of the commandments of God and that’s what makes Paul a false prophet. Deut 13:1-10. This is a capital crime and punishment is by death.

Let's have an actual look at your Scripture quote here, shall we?

Deuteronomy 13:1-10 (ESV): If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For Yahuweh your God is testing you, to know whether you love Yahuweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after Yahuweh your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against Yahuweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which Yahuweh your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst. If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from Yahuweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

As the Scripture makes absolutely clear, the person being stoned to death is a "prophet" or "dreamer of dreams" who entices the people saying "Let us go after other gods". Where does Paul teach anyone to go after other gods, or "some of the gods of the peoples who are around you"? There is nothing here in Deuteronomy 13 that says a false prophet is someone who teaches the people to not keep the commandments of Yahuweh - they are those who teach people to go and serve other gods other than Yahuweh, which Paul never does.

It appears that you're putting words into Gods mouth, Douglas. I suggest you stop.

MTWTY-Admin is trying to mislead you big time against me and I can prove this. Once you see this fact you will know the rest of TWTY-Admin points are crappy and divisive as well.

Again with the false accusations. I'm not misleading anyone, because I actually point people to the source of my answers so they can read them for themselves.

You have essentially completely ignored the actual point of the topic (showing that Apollonius and Paul aren't the same person), and instead have resorted to nothing but personal attacks on me and talking about other things that aren't pertinent as to whether Apollonius and Paul are the same person or not.

Granted, I am warning people against listening to you, but that's not misleading them - that's helping them be cautious against a false teacher who sprouts nothing but lies and deceit, which anyone who watches your videos or reads your writings can see.

There are a couple of categories of a false prophets found in Torah. A false prophet can be one who’s a prediction doesn’t come true but this not what Paul is being charged with?

You actually haven't proved that a false prophet isn't just someone who makes false prophecies and seduces people to follow the gods of the people surrounding Israel. You need to do that first of all.

Paul is being charge with teaching people away from keeping the commandments of God.

Which isn't in the category of "false prophet". The charge against Paul is false anyway.

Acts 21:21 & Acts 21:28 A passage used from Torah for those who predictions don’t come true is from Deuteronomy 18:22" when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (This is not a capital crime; you are just not to respect “fear” the prophet of false predictions)

Deuteronomy 13 begs to differ.

So TWTY-Admin now been proven wrong on his first point and sets the tone for his other bogus points.

All that's been proven is that you appear to have an inability to read. Also if my point #1 is wrong (which it isn't), you have yet to even bother to answer the other 13 points I have noted down above, so it's presumptuous for you to dismiss them just because you think I don't know what Scripture says regarding false prophets.

Now proving Paul the false prophet for “teaching away from Torah” which is a capital crime of which Paul is being charged with.
Here we read where James, the brother of our Lord is asking Paul about Paul’s false teachings. James already knows the answers to his question and wants to see if Paul will deny it in any fashion.
Acts 21:21 "but they have been informed about you (Paul) that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses (the law), saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs."

Paul is so busted for teaching away from the commandments of God and Paul never denied it.

As I pointed out in the YouTube comments, Stephen in Acts 6-7 was also accused of doing the same thing that Paul was: “This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the Torah, for we have heard him say that this Yahushua of Nazareth shall destroy this place and will change the customs that Moses delivered to us.” He never denies these charges either, yet Luke still calls those who state this "false witnesses", because that's what they were - false witnesses.

It always puzzles me why the charge is that Paul and Stephen teach against the "customs" handed down to the Jews. Why is that, do you think? Sounds to me that Paul and Stephen were teaching against the Oral Torah, which according to Judaism was handed down to them via word of mouth from Moses - his "customs" - not, however, his "laws" or "teachings" or "the commandments of God" - it's just "Moses' customs".

I guess it's not surprising that Paul states the following: But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, trusting and relying on everything laid down by the Torah and written in the Prophets (Acts 24:14) Notice he doesn't say "the custom of Moses" or "the customs"? That's because the "custom" of Moses is different to the Torah/the Torah of Moses (Acts 15:5).

Paul is also busted in the Temple by eye and ear witnesses, Jews from Asia who heard Paul teach there.
Acts 21:27 Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him (Paul) in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him (Paul), Act 21:28crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man (Paul) who teaches all men everywhere against the people(the Jews), the law(Torah), and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place."
Act 21:29(For they had previously seen Trophimus (the gentile) the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

They also make this accusation again in Acts 24:1-9: And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid before the governor their case against Paul. And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying: “Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight, most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation, in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude. But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. He even tried to profane the temple, but we seized him. By examining him yourself you will be able to find out from him about everything of which we accuse him.” The Jews also joined in the charge, affirming that all these things were so.

Yet, Paul had done nothing of the things that Tertullus here was accusing him of, and which the rest of the Jews joined in affirming. It's why Paul states this following these false accusations: And when the governor had nodded to him to speak, Paul replied: “Knowing that for many years you have been a judge over this nation, I cheerfully make my defense. You can verify that it is not more than twelve days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem, and they did not find me disputing with anyone or stirring up a crowd, either in the temple or in the synagogues or in the city. Neither can they prove to you what they now bring up against me... Now after several years I came to bring alms to my nation and to present offerings. While I was doing this, they found me purified in the temple, without any crowd or tumult. But some Jews from Asia - they ought to be here before you and to make an accusation, should they have anything against me. Or else let these men themselves say what wrongdoing they found when I stood before the council, other than this one thing that I cried out while standing among them: ‘It is with respect to the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial before you this day.’ ”

They were unable to prove a single thing that they levelled against Paul. Not too dissimilar to what you're doing now, Douglas

You can read where the eye and ear witness are bringing up false prophet charges against Paul. Also you can never bring gentiles into the Temple back then and even in the future, read (Ezekiel 44:9 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart (one has to be Torah observant) or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel.) We also can easily infer from Ezekiel 44:9 that the law has not been done away with as Paul falsely teaches in (Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.)

Actually, the Greek of Romans 10:4 is to be translated: For Messiah is an ordinance's aim, goal and purpose on behalf of righteousness to everyone who trusts and relies in the trustworthy. As there is no definite article before the noun νομος in the Greek text, it can not mean "the" law.

I asked you in the YT comments whether you could speak or read Greek or not. I assume from this that you actually can't read or speak Greek? Let's not also forget that contra to the false accusers, Paul hadn't taken a Greek into the Temple. Another incorrect charge levelled against Paul.

So we have eye and ear witnesses against Paul and also Paul’s writings that testifying against Paul as being a false prophet who teaches away from keeping the commandments of God. This is capital crime.

There were no eye or ear witnesses to these things, and Paul's writings don't teach against the Torah. You also have yet to show that a false prophet is one who teaches against keeping the commandments of God.

TWTY-Admin is trying to mislead you by lying about what charges are brought up against Paul the false apostle of Rev 2:2. The punishment for lying under oath TWTY-Admin is very serious one and all Torah observant people know this.

It's quite obvious that I'm not trying to mislead anyone. And thanks for the warning - I suggest that you take heed on your own words.

Secondly, Revelation 2:2 doesn't mention Paul by name, and he certainly isn't one of the 'false delegates' being referred to by Yahushua. I guess you don't actually know what the Greek word αποστολος means, do you? If you did, you wouldn't be incorrectly transliterating it as 'apostle'.

Paul is a Pharisee, the Lord commands us to reject all teachings of all the Pharisees. Are you doing this?

As I noted in the YT comments, Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea were both Pharisees too. Plus Luke also records this in Acts 15:5: But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees... Whilst it is true that the Messiah commanded the disciples to 'beware' of the Teachings of the Pharisees (and Sadducees), he says nothing about the Pharisees as individual people. This is proven by the fact that Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, Paul, and several others were still 'Pharisees' even after coming to trust in Yahushua.

Not neglecting the fact that Paul didn't promote any of the false teachings of the Pharisees.

So for point one I have proven that TWTY-Admin is trying to mislead people.

You haven't proven anything, Douglas, other than the fact that you are incapable of reading things thoroughly.

You claim to be a 'Bible Researcher', yet why are you incapable of understanding anything you read?

Bar all this, I was actually wanting you to answer the points regarding your supposed Paul-Apollonius connection. Yet here, you seem to want to make us believe that Paul was not only Apollonius, but a Pharisee as well.

But you can't have it this way. Paul was either a Pharisee, or he was Apollonius (and Apollonius never stepped one foot inside Israel). You contradict yourself in your own video.

Pick one, and stick with it.

Also, I'd answer points 5-14 before you continue, as well as those of Acharya S (which you quote verbatum on your website). That is what you were really supposed to answer. The stipulations for a false prophet deserve their own thread. This thread should just be for Paul and Apollonius, hence its title.

@StevePaige: agreed on the salvation bit. However, that doesn't give people like Douglas here the right to make false accusations against someone, no matter who it is (I know you weren't saying this in the slightest - I just want to make it very clear for everyone else )

[willbrinsonferguson]

Steve, I know that I used Galatians to set the stage, but it was Kafe' [Peter'] writing that I was using as the back-bone of my rebuttal.

I can understand you not holding Galatians as authentic, whereby dismissing the verses I used to set up the FACT that none of the other Apostles condemned Shawul (Powlos) for teaching heresies, I even some what agree with your reasoning for not wanting to follow the Apostles through their writings. But if Kafe can not be held as an accurate witness testifying of Shawul then why should we believe him or anyone else for that matter as to their testimony about Y'hoshuah being The Anointed One? The New Testament is a witness to the Old Testament' Anointed One having come in the flesh, whereby it should not be thrown out and counted unworthy of being Scripture. Yes it points to the Old Testament for sure, but that is it' purpose, and that purpose is an important part of Y'hoshuah' News - that the Kingdom of YaHuWaH is at hand [not some where far off that no one can not yet obtain] for those who are willing to worship in truth and spirit. If you throw out the New Testament because men wrote it then what is to keep you from throwing out the Old Testament for the same rerasoning and just try and worship by your own understanding? The Scriptures authors, of both Old and New, were inspired by YaHuWaH so that we would have a guide to help us understand His Kingdom and His will. If we start throwing a Scripture here and there away because they were not written in stone by the finger of YaHuWaH Himself then we will come to find our children finishing off what we have started. Then come the Judgement Day will be held accountable for their lack of spirituality as well as all future generations that we had a hand in removing the Scriptures before. If a book is a fake that is one thing, but for the ones that are authentic we should not dis them.

All that being said none of the New Testament authors dissed Shawul for teaching heresies. And Kafe defended Shawul as a true Apostle.

I will look further into the Great Galatians Debate and if I am convinced that it is a fraud I will discontinue the use thereof.

Now as for Douglas Nicholson, I emplore you to stop making unfounded railing accusations of with you look foolish for doing and either make you points about Shawul (a.k.a. - Powlos) or be silent, for by either way you will at least seem as being wise by doing so. But if you can not and are still lead by the spirit to belittle an honest man then I rebuke you and leave you to Sawtawn to be taught a lesson. REPENT or be judged by your Maker, awane!!!

[Rob]

I will look further into the Great Galatians Debate and if I am convinced that it is a fraud I will discontinue the use thereof.

If you could do that Will and bring us your thoughts and findings on this forum (pro/against or whatever), I know Stephen and myself would be very thankful. Stephen put a load of time into his dissection of Galatians in that document and I think other than myself (I think I might have even asked the question in the first place) and some close friends, no one has tried to refute or confirm anything in it. It is a long and technical document so maybe that's where people are scared away, understandably.

Anyway yes, if you do that would be awesome

[StevePaige]

Stephen,

I believe that, being people, we have the right to be called out when we make false accusations. I hope that you get my meaning here... just like we have the right to be wrong, we have the right to be held accountable. Douglas was and you did.

Will,

And its not that I don't agree with the writings of the Apostles. In their writings I see clear direction toward Yahoshua and we can see where and to whom he was/is pointing.

Stephen,

I would like to thank you for this site. It was because of Craig Winn's site that I made it over here. I know that there are differences between you two, but I have found his site interesting and helpful in some areas.

Well back to work

Steve

[willbrinsonferguson]

Steve,

first off I will say that TWTY-Admin has put a lot of time and effort into his study of the Book of Galatians and has done a great job at pointing out differences within this Book as well as some of the other NT books. This being said I must attest that the Book of Galatians along with the Book of Ephesians is in the PeshittA. Those of the Church of the East lay claim that the Eastern Assembly was handed the Text of the Peshitta personally by the Apostles themselves.

I beleive that Polycarp [2] was a disciple of YaHu-Khawnawn the Presbyter, who was a disciple of YaHu-Khawnawn the/an Apostle. This would mean that Polycarp learned from a man that learned from one of the original Apostles himself. Other lay claim that Polycarp studied dirrectly under the Apostle YaHu-Khawnawn. Either way Polycarp is attributed with having quoted Galatians 3 times (see chart below). If these are genuine quotes this should help give credence to the authoritativeness of the Book of Galatians in my opinion, as I do not see Polycarp as one whom would have been taught by one not in the KNOW of Canonical Books.

I know that this may be stretching the definition of what is considered a quote, but the second one below TWTY-Admin pointed out this was indeed a strange saying [1], yet Polycarp thought it worth repeating. Ego I [3].

Polycarp 3:3/Galatians 4:26
... -- "which is a mother of us all", ...

Polycarp 5:1/Galatians 6:7

... "God is not mocked", ...

Polycarp 12:3/Galatians 1:1
...and in "his Father who raised him from the dead".
( http://www.ntcanon.org/Polycarp.shtml"

Also on the following web-link has one of Polycarp' letters in which references to Galatians is eluded to/quoted more than once:
http://www.cogwriter.com/polycarpletter.htm

Kafe remarked that Shawul' writing were hard to understand (2 Kafe [Peter] 3:16), wherefore I refer any and all to the following link for a verse by verse detailed analysis on the Book of Galatians that will help one understand that this Book is not anti-Torah as many have claim, but actually Pro Torah through and through:
http://nazarenespace.com/forum/topics/l ... e=activity

Also at the following can be found a translation of Galatians with foot-notes explaining the Pro-Torah view of the Book of Galatians:
http://torahtreasuretrove.com/shop/page/58?shop_param=

Last but not least, with out a map showing the travels of Shawul and the areas claimed in the Great Galatians Debate it is hard to follow Shwalchy' claims as to whether or not Shawul came close to the Area claim to be Galatia. On this note I would like to ask Shwalchy to please post a Map showing the areas with lines tracing out the journeys of Shawul so that we may see just how far never had a chance in coming into contact with the people of Galatia is.

Foot-Note:
[1] see page 33 and page 48 of TWTY-Admin Great Galatians Debate.
[2] For a detailed analysis of Polycarp' life see: http://www.st-philip.net/files/Fitzgera ... smyrna.pdf
[3] I will hold to the Texts contained within the PheshittA (which contains the Book of Galatians) as well as the Books that are so-called Western-Five!

[TWTY-Admin]

Hi Will, answered these in a new thread Click to go

Keeping this thread just for Paul and Apollonius

[Rob]

Thread seems to be unfortunately slowing... I thought there might actually be a discussion here.

[TWTY-Admin]

I wouldn't count on it. Douglas is hardly the one to admit that he was incorrect in what he said regarding Apollonius.

I could be wrong on that front, but the excuse that he's "busy" with his "ministry" is what he's probably going to appeal to.

Edit: Ironically, I couldn't get on http://www.lasttrumpet.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - not that I'm complaining. The longer it's offline, the better