Saturn worship

[danshelper]

Amos 5:26, Acts 7:43
Sikkuth, Moloch, Chiun, Remphan ….

Are these all references to what boils down to Saturn worship, and Saturn’s day worship?

Some references:
http://www.thecorner-stone.org/c/Ch/chiun.php
http://hope-of-israel.org.nz/saturdayinscripture.html

TWTY-Admin, can I attach a PDF file here?

[TWTY-Admin]

No idea DH.

Let's test:....


...nope. Can't attach a PDF.

However, if you stick it in a .ZIP, then you can attach it

[danshelper]

Okay, I'm gonna try ...

[danshelper]

I truly don’t mean to overload with information here, but I just find this fascinating. This is a document from the group that I mentioned in the “Pattern of Everything” thread, where Saturn is associated with the “Mystery of Iniquity” or Satan.

http://wiki.thepatternofeverything.org/ ... le_Pattern

[TWTY-Admin]

Having had a brief look at these files (sorry - been really busy to have had any more time to look at them), but they appear to me to be basically trying to justify the Christian Sunday being the "Sabbath", and attempting to state that because Saturday is named after the God Saturn, that therefore having the Sabbath on "Saturn's Day" is the same as having it on "the Lord's day".

However, I was thinking about this with regards to the other thread that pointed out that the Romans had an eight day week, compared to the Hebraic seven. This therefore means that actually, each week, the Hebraic "seventh/Shabbat" day will not fall on the same day as the Roman/Greek "Saturday".

Because one is going in sevens, the other in eights.

Look at it this way. Let's say both start on the first day of the week. This therefore means that when we get to the seventh day, they're both on the seventh day. However, the following day after the seventh day for the Hebrew would be day one of the next week, but for the Roman/Greek, that would be the eight day. So by the time the Roman/Greek has got to the first day of the week again ("the Lords day"), the Hebrew is on the second day of the week. So when the Hebrew get's to the seventh day of the second week, the Roman/Greek is still on the 6th day of his/her second week.

(quick Graph)



Therefore the Hebraic Seventh day Shabbat would hardly, if ever, coincide in the Greek/Roman Saturn's day.

[Rob]

Plus the Hebrew's didn't call it Saturday. They actually call the days of the week simply by the number of where they are. So First Day, Second Day... etc etc etc - and this was going on much before Saturn worship.

But saying that I have not read the document yet.

Although remember that Sabbath isn't a day for "worship" anyway - it's not really the day you are "meant" to have Church... it's a time to meet with Yah and rest from working/normal stuff. I would avoid meeting on a Sunday for the simple reason that I would not want to be seen to associate with the "Sabbath is now Sunday" theology.

But yea - like I said - I haven't read the document yet.

[danshelper]

Thanks for your responses!

but they appear to me to be basically trying to justify the Christian Sunday being the "Sabbath", and attempting to state that because Saturday is named after the God Saturn, that therefore having the Sabbath on "Saturn's Day" is the same as having it on "the Lord's day".

I’m not sure why you got this impression. The two articles (Seed of the Serpent and Saturday in Scripture) are from sites that certainly do not promote the Christian Sunday!

The point I am researching is that the predominant view of Saturday being the Sabbath is unscriptural. It is idolatry that Israel continually succumbed to – International Standard Bible Encyclopedia under “idolatry”:

II. THE WORSHIP OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES THE FORM OF IDOLATRY TO WHICH THE ISRAELITES WERE MOST PRONE
1. Chiun, Certainly the Planet Saturn
2. Saturn or Moloch Worship
3. Mazzaloth, or Planet Worship
4. Gadh and Meni or Star Worship
5. Lucifer, the Shining Star

With this, there are two remaining options: YHWH’s Sabbath is a continuous, uninterrupted 7-day cycle (i.e. your calendar TWTY-Admin); or it is based on and reset by the monthly renewal of the moon.

The Sabbath depending, in Israel's nomadic period, upon the observation of the phases of the moon, it could not, according to this view, be a fixed day. When the Israelites settled in the land and became farmers, their new life would have made it desirable that the Sabbath should come at regular intervals, and the desired change would have been made all the more easily as they had abandoned the lunar religion. (Jewish Encyclopedia)

The fact that Israel at times worshipped either on Saturn’s day or later by a continuous weekly cycle is no evidence that the modern Saturn’s day (Saturday) is the Sabbath of Creation. Rather, the accumulation of scriptural and historical evidence supports the interpretation of this act of Israel as being one of gross apostasy and moral rebellion. It is not coincidence that the seventh-day of the modern planetary week, the day on which the majority of Sabbatarians worship, is none other than Saturn’s day. In fact, one Jewish scholar boasts that a continuous weekly cycle, divorced from the lunar cycle, is the Jews’ greatest contribution to modern civilization:

A continuous seven-day cycle that runs throughout history paying no attention whatsoever to the moon and its phases is a distinctively Jewish invention. 43 Moreover, the dissociation of the seven-day week from nature has been one of the most significant contributions of Judaism to civilization....it facilitated the establishment of what Lewis Mumford identified as “mechanical periodicity,” 44 thus essentially increasing the distance between human beings and nature. Quasi weeks 45 and weeks 46 actually represent two fundamentally distinct modes of temporal organization of human life, the former involving partial adaptation to nature, and the latter stressing total emancipation from it. The invention of the continuous week was therefore one of the most significant breakthroughs in human beings’ attempts to break away from being prisoners of nature and create a social world of their own. 47, 48 (Saturday in Scripture)

[TWTY-Admin]

Ah. I had just skimmed, and recalled something about Sunday. Made a guess as to exactly what it was, and obviously guessed wrongly!

[Edit: It was this that made me think at least one of the documents was defending Sunday: "Too long have Jews and Saturday Sabbatarians looked pityingly or contemptuously upon Roman Catholics and Sunday-keeping Protestants. Saturday Sabbatarians who have leveled charges of hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty and inconsistency against those who worship on the first day of the week, are now learning the truth of the Biblical principle: “Do not judge lest you be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.” " (http://hope-of-israel.org.nz/saturdayinscripture.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)]

I remember studying up on whether the Weeks got reset at the start of the new moon, and I was unconvinced by such an interpretation.

If the weeks were reset at the start of the new moon, then how on earth would we be able to calculate the day that the feast of weeks fell on?

According to Leviticus 23, we're to count "seven Sabbaths", and in Deuteronomy "seven weeks" from the day of firstfruits in order to get to the right day/date for the Feast of weeks. If there was no "week" to think of, how would we get the 50 days needed to get from firstfruits to the Feast of weeks?

Seven weeks of seven days fits exactly right for 49 days, and then the day after the 49th day, being the 50th day, as the right date for the Feast of weeks.

If there was a "reset" of the week during this time (and there will have been), then being able to count it would be nigh on impossible.

I also don't see how it can coincide with what's said in Exodus 20:8-11:

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it set-apart. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of Yahuweh your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days Yahuweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore Yahuweh blessed the sabbath day and made it set-apart.

If the weeks were reset every new moon (or pretty much every 30 days), then in a month we'd have 4 7 day weeks, and then a two day "week" at the end. Or would we have a 9-day week, with the week carrying over onto the next week? My main trouble was being able to see how the reset "week" worked at all with what Yahuweh states in the above verses.

I obviously need to read the two documents above

Actually, I guess my main question therefore would be this: What day do the documents actually say is the Sabbath day? If it doesn't more or less coincide with our Saturn's day, where exactly does it fall?

[Rob]

On the moon sync'ed Sabbath:

There is a big thing about the whole moon sync'ed Sabbath - yet I see absolutely no logical appearance in scripture - and reasons against it like the ones TWTY-Admin mentioned. I think the only verses that can be used to justify (or try to justify it) is Ezekiel 46:3 and others surrounding it, but then that dosen't even link them physically together.

From what I have experienced of this line of thought it seems to be an over zealous "remove everything including your left toenail that might have looked at something that happened to have sat next to something that was once pagan". I mean the heart of it is admirable but the fact just dosen't stick...

So yea I still have to read it - I will give it a look at lunchtime today

[Rob]

Just had a read through the pattern of everything website - and I have to say I don't rate it very highly in terms of logical thought. It's a little all over the shop, including the ideas of greek gods and basically trying to make things "fit" into any kind of pattern I don't like. I think his theology is off and so throws everything off course. Yah never involves angels within his pictures... hated the connection for the chemical symbol of Mercury being Hg so therefore it must mean Holy Ghost - I mean come on lol

So After reading through that, not convinced at all by that site lol

Onwards to the other doc!

Ok read the Satan Seed. A terrible document with no sources revealed and massive sweeping claims against Israel being half illegitimate. Esau is the father of the Arab Nations, his mother and himself were exiled. Very anti semitic. We all know the Jews are well off base, and we know the religion of Judaism/Christianity/Islam to be the work of Satan, but the religion has nothing to do with bloodline. The Pharisees were Israelites, we know who they were and where they came from - we know they were spurned when they first appeared and separated from the main body of Israel, but we also know they came back and started to take over around the time of the destruction of the second temple. Interbreeding isn't a problem if it happened, because as long as one of your parents is Jewish you carry the blood - Plus Yah's physical circumcision (done for the covenant) in my view creates an Israelite.

His arguments are ridiculous and very hateful towards Israel - and he seems to link Israel to Judaism far too much. The religion will be sorted out, but the people are still set apart and will be used.

So end of the day no - I don't see anything in it that is vaguely useful or accurate.

I could be wrong lol.

[danshelper]

I agree with some of your comments Rob. What I find very frustrating is that the truth is “here a little, there a little.” The websites and/or docs I referenced all have some truth. I’m trying to pull out that truth from the other stuff.

I referenced them regarding the issue of saturn as it relates to the idols mentioned in Scripture (Sikkuth, Moloch, Chiun, Remphan) because I’m trying to understand if/how this idolatry affects us today. To me, it’s similar to Christmas being rooted in sun worship (sol invictus) or saturn worship (saturnalia). I know that most people who celebrate Christmas do not think they are worshipping idols, and I know that those who believe that Saturday is the Scriptural Sabbath are not purposefully worshipping “saturn”.

It boils down to “what is the truth” because we’re called to worship YHWH in spirit and truth. And the law written on our hearts “badgers” us to continually seek the truth so we only “accept, advance, support, sustain” (I agree with Craig’s amplification of the 3rd commandment) truth in YHWH’s Name.

What day do the documents actually say is the Sabbath day? If it doesn't more or less coincide with our Saturn's day, where exactly does it fall?

Many of those who believe that YHWH instituted a lunar-based Sabbath see it falling on the 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th of each month.

Thanks for your help in uncovering the truth!

[Rob]

yes I agree with you, an yes it's spattered everywhere hehe. But then I suppose if one guy was right - there would be no search

I think the whole reason I disagree with the Saturn-day worship is that it dosen't matter. Firstly we are never called to worship on the Sabbath - and it was Yom Shabbat - The Seventh Day - Long before the greek gods showed up. Anything that is attached to it is just that, attached after.

For the argument if we are right on the Saturday of today being the Sabbath of Yah - then we have to look at the evidence. Yahushua would not have celebrated a Sabbath made by man - full stop. So when we are told He did something on the Sabbath we know that it would have been the Sabbath... If not it would have been explained that He was somehow restoring the Sabbath. Plus Passover wouldn't have happened when it did and wouldn't have been as awesomely timed etc etc. Basically it sets everything spinning, and shows Yahushua keeping a man made Sabbath.

[danshelper]

I’ve been reading from a couple of older resources and finding that some scholars believe the Sabbath has evolved over time. They see it as having begun as a lunar based rest day reflecting the pagan traditions of the Ancient Near East and developed over time to become the continuous 7 day cycle. Following is an excerpt from “Scientific basis of Sabbath and Sunday”: http://books.google.com/books?id=kRQNAA ... &q&f=false

Summarizing we have the following: When the Hebrews settled in Palestine they adopted directly the Canannitish religious customs, including the Seventh Day. This was a lunar feast day, a joy day, a day in which ordinary work was laid aside for fear of offending the lunar god. This holy day together with the new moon was loosely observed simply from force of custom, till about B.C. 850, or a little later, when a command was given to the Hebrews to observe it, especially in plowing time and harvest time.

About a century later, we find another code containing a commandment to observe the Seventh Day all seasons. To the Hebrews the day at first was simply a rest day for the special benefit of the physical constitution. The command was merely advisory without any penalty connected with it.

In the reign of Josiah another law was promulgated, which presented a new motive for keeping the Sabbath. This law tries to secure obedience by making it a memorial of the deliverance of the Israelites from the Egyptians. It was then a memorial day.

After they were taken into Exile, Ezekiel stamps it as a “sign” between God and Israel, changing it into a sign day.

A century later they were to rest because God rested the Seventh Day after his creative work. It then took the nature of an example day, that is a day to follow the example of God. It is in this period that we find a fully developed sacred Seventh Day Sabbath. From this time on Judaism developed in the direction of legalism until it assumed the character of the Rabbinical Sabbath.

The last few page summary of this second source is worth a read beginning on page 350. “The original character of the Hebrew Sabbath” http://books.google.com/books?id=pKpDAA ... &q&f=false

[Rob]

I think I am confused - is it now implied that Sabbath is Pagan that wiggled it's way into Israel, based on the new moon then evolved into a weekly event?

[danshelper]

You’ll have to read more than my post to settle that – I only tried to post a summary to be concise and compel deeper digging, but …

“The Sacred Record tells us that the Sabbath commandment was given to the Hebrews by God through Moses, but this does not imply that it was the first time the Sabbatic idea entered the mind of man. It is easily conceivable how men of God might be divinely guided to establish institutions, for the advancement of his kingdom, which had been in existence long before. It can truly be said that God gave institutions and customs to the Hebrews that were long in vogue among surrounding peoples. So the fact that God gave to Moses a Sabbath does not intimate its primal origin then and there. The heathen Sabbath was observed centuries before the Hebrews had a beginning.”

Chapter I, Pg 49 Scientific basis of Sabbath and Sunday

A few other sources:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... sabbath#60 (see Probable Lunar Origin)
http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T7529
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm (origin of the Sabbath)

It's just not as cut and dry as every Saturday since the beginning of creation!

[Lassie1865]

Interesting discussion on the forum here of the lunar Sabbath. I've been reading up on this subject at:
http://www.creationcalendar.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/Hi ... _a_Lie.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems that our calendar has been changed so many times by the ruling authorities through the millennia, that surely there must be a more objective way to determine what day is God's 7th Day. If the 8, 15, 22, and 29 of each lunar month are indeed "7th day Sabbaths", then Unleavened Bread and Sukkah would always occur on a weekly "Sabbath", thereby making them "high Sabbaths".
Also, to consider, the counting of the Omer:
http://www.creationcalendar.com/Calenda ... fWeeks.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[willbrinsonferguson]

Well it seem as if Lassie1865 beat me to the punch. I know that a lot of luni people are teaching a lot of lunatical stuff, but if you want a clear understanding of the lunar Shabbawth go to creationcalendar.com and read all the PDFs available for free download or online reading. Or download the zip file here for conveyence: http://www.mediafire.com/?6bzpy817ypccw0a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Be sure and read the PDF on "Philo and Josephus (and a few others) support the Creation Calendar", "the Scriptuaral count to the Feast of weeks, when Pentacost has fully come" - "SDA Version", and "a Three witness calendar that proves Pentacost is in the summer not in the spring". I first could not except the lunar Shabbaths because of the counting of the Omar. Then after reading Troy' teachings on this subject I could not use that as an excuse any more. All else falls into place when you read the rest of his studies.

I have 5 videos of Troy' teaching on this subject which can be share freely if their is a way for me to upload them here or perhaps if anyone would want them sent to them they can get with me and I will send them. Troy (the Creation Calendar website owner) is the only one that I have found that teaches this subject without all the nonsense. The math proves out within the Old and New Testaments. I first set out to prove him wrong and am now thoroughly sold after an in-depth study. It all makes sense the way he explains it. Again I fought tooth and toe nail to disprove this teaching but it proves itself out. I had to admit that the other really can not hold water compared to the lunar Shabbawth teachings when done by a teacher that is not plumb out of their noggin. And there are plenty of then out there turning people against the Lunar Shabbawths because they for one are just plumb lunatics, point blank. All that said go to the creationcalendar.com website and read the PDFs on this subject and see if for once if it does not begin to make sense.

http://creationcalendar.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I started reading about this subject on other sites but as I said I was turned against lunar Shabbaths because of the poor and ridiculous teachings of others, yet Troy does not teach in such a manner. He deals in facts within the Scriptures and true science to boot. Shalom (Be ye complete in Yahuwah, nothing missing - nothing wanting, awmane.)

[Rob]

I just read through

http://creationcalendar.com/CalendarIss ... re-SDA.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know it's very SDA directed but wow - what a load of rubbish. I must pic a subject one day and write a document on it backing it up with random quotes from scripture and random articles. I wonder how many people I will get eating out of my hand.

[TWTY-Admin]

Having had time to read the PDF and look up all the verses, I completely concur with Rob. It appears that Troy should've really gone on and read Exodus 31:17 where Yahuweh says, It [the Sabbath] is a sign forever between Me and the people of Israel that in six days Yahuweh made the heaven and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

How he equated Exodus 31:13 with being something to do with the moon is beyond my comprehension, and in fact for the random 12 verses he quoted.

And for the record, all the English names for the days of the week bear the name of the Adversary, not just Saturday and Sunday, so such arguments based on English names for the week are quite silly as far as I'm concerned.

[willbrinsonferguson]

I have attached a PDF that shows the Lunar Sabbath Theory is not The Way of YHWH.