General Yahushua Questions

[TWTY-Admin]

I was sent an email recently by a close friend with some pressing questions that he, and several others around the globe, have concerning Yahushua and His relation to Yahuweh. I thought it would be good to start some open discussion on them, to see whether we may be able to reach some sort of conscensus or understanding of them, and hopefully be able to answer them fully.

I'll post the questions below, and my own ponderings will come sometime in the near future

• 1. If no one has every seen God (according to the scriptures), how can Yeshua be God?
• 2. If God can not be tempted, how can Yeshua be God?
• 3. How can God die?
• 4. If Yeshua prays to God and he's also God, wouldn't he be talking to himself?
• 5. Over and over, countless times ,Yeshua delineates between himself and YHWH, how could he be YHWH?
• 6. Didn't Yeshua say that YHWH was his God and our God?
• 7. Didn't Yeshua worship God?
• 8. Isn't the half God half man idea Greek? Yeshua would be like Perseus et al.
• 9. Couldn't Yeshua be a man who was filled with the fullness of the set-apart spirit of YHWH, not break the Torah, become one with YHWH, and not be YHWH himself (and still qualify as the Mashiach)?
• 10. Didn't Yeshua say that the greatest commandment was the Sh'ma (YHWH is one)?
• 11. Didn't YHWH say that he was God and there is no other.
• 12. If Yeshua is another God (like a mini YHWH) wouldn't this be polytheism?
• 13. If Yeshua was God, how could we be his brethren?
• 14. If Yeshua was God, how could anyone possibly walk as he walked?
• 15. How could the lamb of God be God?
• 16. Couldn't Yeshua be a perfect emissary of YHWH and not be YHWH?

[Rob]

This is my instant reaction to the questions:

1. Yahushua is only a small part of God. God is not a man on a cloud either, He is energy beyond imagination. So when no one has ever seen God, it's because Yahushua is just a mask, puppet, human action figure of something beyond comprehension. When you see Yahushua you see part of Yahuweh, just like Moses saw Yahuweh's Glory - but no one has fully seen Yahuweh.

2. He wasn't tempted. He was asked some questions which he squashed quite hard, tempted would have been to sit there and at least weigh the pro's and cons.

3. He can't.

4. Yes.

5. Because he is only part Yahuweh but also an exmaple to follow. Better to follow an example of a man in close union with His Father than someone who just strolls around with a full God complex.

6. Yea.

7. Not sure - but no problem if He did or didn't lol

8. Who said it was 50/50? All the above questions are just talking about the limitations of a limitless God - I'm not sure how to answer them without rambling lol

9. That's what he was... The Set-apart spirit is as much Yahuweh as Yahushua is... Just another manageable aspect to benefit our small minds.

10. Don't know.

11. Yes - and that still stands. lol

12. He's not - as stated above.

13. Because that is the picture being painted... Yahushua was projected as a son. A perfect example.

14. Because he is an example.

15. How couldn't he?

16. No - because only Yahuweh is perfect.

So basucally all the questions can be summed up as:

"How can God and Yahushua be the same person?"

[Miles]

"1. Yahushua is only a small part of God. God is not a man on a cloud either, He is energy beyond imagination. So when no one has ever seen God, it's because Yahushua is just a mask, puppet, human action figure of something beyond comprehension. When you see Yahushua you see part of Yahuweh, just like Moses saw Yahuweh's Glory - but no one has fully seen Yahuweh."

Hi Rob, I'm the one who send the questions to Stephen via email. I'm glad he posted them because I believe they are important questions, some of the most important questions we could ask. Since I'm not an expert in Torah, I am relying on reason and logic (though the experts do even more so) to help me understand these important and difficult questions. With regard to Y'shua being only a small part of God, which small part are you referring? It's not like he's a fraction or something like that, because of fraction of an infinite thing would still be infinite. If Y'shua is a mask, puppet, or action figure of something beyond comprehension then he's not very comprehensible either (which would be a shame). If I could look at you for instance, wouldn't I also see a part of YHWH? One of the things I mentioned to Stephen in my email was that I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this question, still haven't. What I hear are answers that don't make any sense. I'd like to stay with this first question for awhile and let you and others chime in and see what we can figure out, then move on. I also think if we'd just drop all our preconceived notions about who YHWH is and who Y'shua is, we might all come up with a different answer (it'd also be nice if we weren't indoctrinated into a Greek mindset).

[Rob]

Like said - Instant responses - probably very wrong.

I think the issue is you aren't going to get a answer that fits, because it just doesn't. Unless Yah draws us a diagram when we have been relieved of our time/human constrained minds I don't think we will get it. All I know is Yah is extremely powerful, and this really doesn't seem like such a big problem to someone who created existence.

[Miles]

I think you are right, it doesn't fit, because from what I can tell the man/god idea is Greek not Hebrew. I personally believe it's a big problem because I'd like to really know the one I claim to love. If this idea is not reasonable and scripture doesn't support it, then I can not accept it. I think the renewed covenant scriptures reveal Y'shua as the Mashiach, but do not say that the Mashiach is the Most High. For every scripture that seems to suggest that Y'shua is God, there's many more that say the opposite, so why do we accept the Christian/Pagan understanding? Haven't our fathers inherited lies?

[TWTY-Admin]

Well, no, the idea of "man/god" is certainly not a Greek one. For the Greeks, they didn't believe in a one Supreme Being, but a Pantheon of 'gods', whom could do whatever the heck it was that they wanted. The demigods such as Perseus, Hercules etc., etc., were the offspring of a god with a human, and so were "half man, half god", which actually has nothing in common with Yahushua being "God in the flesh", or His "Human Manifestation".

I also don't quite understand the "a fraction of an infinite thing would still be infinite" line. How is that so?

If we take the number 1 for instance: 1 is just a number of an infinite stream of numbers that has no end. Numbers are "infinite" - there's no beginning or end (for they just keep going and going in both ways, positive and negative). Yet let's say that Yahushua comprises numbers 1 through 10 - whilst that is all that Yahuweh can fit of Himself (or His "force" so to speak) into His physical manifestation (you know, before obliterating the planet due to His overwhelming power), Yahuweh Himself is still "infinite" and Yahushua technically isn't - because numbers 1 through 10 have been transferred from one place to another, the rest of the infinite numbers are still where they are. But numbers 1 through 10 are still part of that infinite stream of numbers ("power/force" - or technically "Spirit"), however just in a separate, yet joined, place.

I hope I explained that well enough. Again, I don't quite comprehend the statement, so please forgive me if I misunderstood

Furthermore, Yahuweh has manifested His power in numerous ways on earth - He manifested as a burning bush to Moshe (Exodus 3); walked in the Garden with Adam and Chawah (Genesis 3:8-9); He guided the Israelites as a pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire (Exodus 13:20-22); shielded Moshe with His hand (Exodus 33:22) and showed Moshe His back (Exodus 33:23).

Reading through all of this again, I have to wonder: is the "man/god" idea not a Hebrew one? The Hebrew Scriptures constantly talk about Yahuweh having a hand, an arm, a back, a head, a face, the ability to "walk", feet, and even the ability to inscribe on tablets using His finger (Exodus 31:18).

If Yahuweh couldn't manifest Himself as a human being, then He doesn't half describe Himself as one

[Miles]

OK, by man/god I mean "a god impregnates a human", that is Greek, like you described. That's exactly how the "new testament" describes advent of Y'shua, isn't that correct?

What is God in the flesh anyway, exactly? A god/man or a man/god. Why do we have to be so "tricky" with explaining the Messiah (not that you are trying to be tricky, I just need a plain answer that a plain guy like me can understand).

If you divide any infinite # by anything by any other non-infinite # you still get infinity... that's all I mean, isn't that mathematically correct? So by saying Y'shua is part God, then he's a fraction of an infinite. If he's 1-10 in the infinite number sequence you described, he equals 0 compared to the infinite #. If you say he's part of the infinite stream of #s then yes, that makes sense but you are also part of the infinite stream of #s. So I guess this is going nowhere . I've heard the argument that Y'shua is all that God could fit himself into as far as humans go and it doesn't make sense and I don't know where the scriptures say that. I makes more sense that Y'shua joined YHWH in a type of unity (so to speak) rather than the other way around. That solves the blowing up the world problem and Y'shua still represent YHWH perfectly.

Yes YHWH manifest's himself in numerous way, especially though a very unique person that became one with him, but that doesn't mean that person is YHWH.

Hand, Arm, Head, Face, etc, all fine and good, but not an argument for Man being God. (and again what I meant about man/god is certainly Greek just as you described it)

It's not that Yahuweh couldn't manifest himself as a human being, there's just not enough evidence for me to believe he did, and to me the accomplishment of Y'shua is even that much more amazing, humbling, and awesome.

So back to Question 1, if no one can see God, how can Y'shua be God?

[Miles]

Question 1, I know you answered it the way you understand it, I respect your perspective of course Stephen, and I appreciate it! I just don't get it. Doesn't Y'shua joining with YHWH (obtaining unity so to speak) make the most sense and solve a lot of issue with regard to the other scriptures (Y'shua prays to YHWH, was tempted, called him his God and our God, repeated clear delineations between Y'shua and YHWH etc?).

[Rob]

Your maths is right - but you can still remove a certain amount of numbers from infinity and limit that range of numbers. We do it ever day in normal math.

I think you summed up the problem nicely though Miles:

Why do we have to be so "tricky" with explaining the Messiah (not that you are trying to be tricky, I just need a plain answer that a plain guy like me can understand).

The issue is it's not simple for us to understand. I kinda see it like Quantum Physics, incredibly backwards to how the norm works, hard to understand because of that. Terrible to try and explain because of it's oddness, depth and variation. I don't see a simple answer to the incarnation question, because I don't think it's actually that simple.

Yahuweh took a scoop of himself and contained it inside a human form, set it apart on earth to experience life like us. The goal was to set an example and bring a perfect sacrifice to deal with the issue of us putting our ideas before Yahuweh's.

[Miles]

Let's try a different approach: Does the Mashiach have to be God? Or can he be God's emissary (and still be a man)?

[TWTY-Admin]

Nope. The Messiah has to be God. He wasn't to be referred to as "Immanuel" for no reason

[Miles]

Is "el gibbowr" the correct Hebrew term in Isaiah 9:6 translated "Mighty God"? I know you've dug into the DSS so you would definitely know. If so, this doesn't have to mean YHWH does it? Also, does everlasting Father (if that is the correct translation), have to mean YHWH (I don't know myself what else it could mean)? But if it does mean Father, then would Y'shua have begotten himself? I realize that's what is commonly believed (or something like that) but why would Y'shua call YHWH his God/Father, if he's his own Father? Also referring to the linage of Y'shua, why bother making Joseph in the line of David (and spending a great effort to show it) when Joseph isn't even his father? Also, if Y'shua is referred to as Immanuel (God with us), does that mean he's God, or could it mean that he would represent God (like Moses for instance) and thereby still fulfill the meaning of his name?

[Miles]

Isn't this description in Isaiah kind of like on long name (and not broken out in to smaller descriptions with capital letters)? Thinking about everlasting Father some more, Y'shua would be like an everlasting father once he started his 1000 year reign correct? This "Immanuel" scripture doesn't seem like proof text from the Tanahk that Y'shua is God/YHWH. In fact, not even close in my humble opinion. In the Tanahk, is there a passage that plainly says that the coming Messiah is YHWH himself? If not, why would we not deduce that Messiah is not YHWH as Y'shua himself seem to indicated numerous times?

[TWTY-Admin]

Is "el gibbowr" the correct Hebrew term in Isaiah 9:6 translated "Mighty God"? I know you've dug into the DSS so you would definitely know. If so, this doesn't have to mean YHWH does it?

'el Gibbowr is certainly "Mighty God" (or even "Powerful/Strong/Valiant God"). Plus, how could it not be a reference to Yahuweh, when He is called (Great Isaiah Scroll in Isa 9:6 has "He is called" not "He shall be called") "Mighty God"? Furthermore, the Hebrew word for "called" is קָרָא/qara' meaning "called, proclaimed, appointed, named".

The Theological Wordbook of the Old testament states that qara' "denotes primarily the enunciation of a specific vocable or message", with its main reference to "the specification of a name", which usually "indicates a primary characteristic of the thing named." This "constitutes a confession, or personal evaluation of the object, or even a recognition of an eternal truth", with a specific reference to "the child prophetically promised is divinely named 'Immanuel' ".

The list in Isaiah 9:6 isn't just a long name, or else it'd be all joined together in the Hebrew and would look something like "Peleyoweselgibbowrabiadsarshalowm". Furthermore, the great Isaiah Scroll inserts the definite article "ha" in front of the Hebrew שַׂר/sar, giving therefore the title "The Prince of Peace"

Also, does everlasting Father (if that is the correct translation), have to mean YHWH (I don't know myself what else it could mean)?

Yes. "Everlasting Father" is certainly the translation of Abiy 'ad (or even "Father forever"), and I would agree that it could only refer to Yahuweh and no one else.

But if it does mean Father, then would Y'shua have begotten himself? I realize that's what is commonly believed (or something like that) but why would Y'shua call YHWH his God/Father, if he's his own Father?

When becoming the human manifestation of Yahuweh, the soul, body and Spirit all joined as one to form Yahushua. Don't think of it as "begottening himself", as it's not like Yahushua is a clone of Yahuweh. He is a section/part/portion/segment of Yahuweh's power in human form.

Think of it like if you could separate your soul from your body: which is the "real" you? Is it just the body part, or is it the soul part?

The answer is neither: they're both you, and separate from one another, you would have to indeed "talk to yourself", and would indeed "be your own Father".

Also referring to the linage of Y'shua, why bother making Joseph in the line of David (and spending a great effort to show it) when Joseph isn't even his father?

Miriam was also from the Lineage of David. Plus, Yahuweh keeps to His promises

Also, if Y'shua is referred to as Immanuel (God with us), does that mean he's God, or could it mean that he would represent God (like Moses for instance) and thereby still fulfill the meaning of his name?

I prefer the translation "With us is God" (following the Immanu-el, rather than "God With us" which to me would be Elimmanu), which brings to the front that it is certainly God Himself who "is with us" in Yahushua. Furthermore, as a name/title (as per all the DSS manuscript of Isaiah which contain the two places where 'Immanuel' appears as a name, not the Masoretic "Immanu el", splitting up the name into a description), it is never applied to any other person. The Tanakh usually makes it quite apparent between something that is God, and just someone who represents Him.

As with regards to whether to the Tanakh indicates that the Messiah (or "coming king" as some texts describe him) would be Yahuweh Himself: how about this from Jeremiah?

23:5-6: "The days are coming," declares Yahuweh, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: Yahuweh Our Righteousness."

We've also got Micah 5:2: But you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, whom is little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of you shall come forth to Me One who is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.

Psalm 45:6-7: Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the sceptre of your kingship a sceptre of justice, you love uprightness and detest evil. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with oil of gladness, as none of your rivals. - "God" has someone who is also His "God"? ('I go to My God and to your God' )

Yahuweh says in Hosea 1:7: But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by Yahuweh their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.” Yahuweh says that He shall save Judah by "Yahuweh their God"? Either Yahuweh has a split personality, or there are two things that can be both referred to as "Yahuweh".

Zechariah 2:10-11: Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares Yahuweh. And many nations shall join themselves to Yahuweh in that day, and shall be my people. And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that Yahuweh of hosts has sent me to you. Again, the "I" is Yahuweh, and yet is also sent by "Yahuweh".

Also, the "Messenger of Yahuweh" in the Tanakh is quite clearly divine, with such places as Genesis 22:15-19, where the "messenger of Yahuweh" speaks as though He Himself is Yahuweh: And the messenger of Yahuweh called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares Yahuweh, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.

Judges 6:11-24 also refers to the "messenger of Yahuweh" as just plain "Yahuweh" several times

[Miles]

These are some great scriptures that seem to make your point very well. However, if you are right, that the Messiah is "literally" YHWH himself, then the Y'shua of the renewed covenant writing is not the Messiah since he clearly stated that he wasn't YHWH. (I realize you are saying he's a part of YHWH but it's hard to understand what part, or how much of a part, etc., so please let me continue.)

Consider...

Matt 26:39
And going forward a little, He fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I desire, but as You desire.”
(Y'shua can not be YHWH if he's submitting to YHWH's will as if it were not his own)

Matt 27:46
And about the ninth hour Y'shua cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Ěli, Ěli, lemah sheḇaqtani?” that is, “My Ěl, My Ěl, why have You forsaken Me?”
(How does YHWH die first of all, but even before that cry out to himself, "Why have you forsaken me"?)

John 5:26
"For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself"
(Y'shua's receiving life from YHWH, so he can not possibly be YHWH himself)

John 5:30
“Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me.
(This a very blatant delineation between YHWH and Y'shua. Y'shua is clearly submitting to YHWH, not himself. He can do nothing without YHWH, so he can't be YHWH. Also, he is claiming he was sent by the Father, which will make a lot of sense later in this expose).

Mark 10:18
And Y'shua said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim
(Another delineation)

John 14:28
“You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
(I can't see how Y'shua can be YHWH if he called YHWH his Father that is greater)

Heb 5:7-9
who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His reverent fear, 8 though being a Son, He learned obedience by what He suffered. 9And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting deliverance to all those obeying Him,
(Y'shua prayed to YHWH who could save him from death, he learned obedience, was perfected (wasn't always perfect). He could not have been the Almighty Creator).

I Corinthians 15:27-28
For “He has put all under His feet.” But when He says “all are put under Him,” it is clear that He who put all under Him is excepted.
28 And when all are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him who put all under Him, in order that Elohim be all in all.
(Y'shua is subject to YHWH, so he can't be YHWH)

There are many other passages that communicate this point (and also some that seem to detract from it thus perpetuating the contradiction).

I wonder if we are missing something contained within the Hebraic concept of an emissary (Yes, I'm bring that up again ). Again, Yeshua's own words contradict (as well as many other passages in the renewed covenant) the idea that he is literally YHWH (in part or not). Y'shua was a servant of YHWH, sent by YHWH, which describes the role of a Shaliach well. For all practical purposes, Y'shua represented YHWH to a degree and in "legal terms" to the point he was YHWH to those he was sent to. The angel of YHWH represents YHWH to the point of "practically" being YHWH, thus you would not differentiate between the two. I don't think this is a concept is well known to the Western mind since it's practically never considered, but I could be wrong (it wasn't to my own mind until recently), but it does explains the apparent contradiction. You can resolve the problem (as I think you have) by making Y'shua a part of YHWH (a piece, scoop, whatever),

"He is a section/part/portion/segment of Yahuweh's power in human form."

or resolve the problem by making Y'shua a Shaliach of YHWH (a very special one at that). The million dollar question is which solution is more Hebraic and intended by the authors of the scriptures?

BTW, Shabbat Shalom!

John 8:28
Yeshua therefore said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

[SeekingYah]

Miles, your point about a fraction of infinity still being infinity reminds me of Zeno's paradox of dichotomy. The paradox is based on the fact that their are an infinite number of halfs in the distance between two objects. So if two objects are 10 feet apart, half of 10 is 5, half of 5 is 2.5 and on and on, so based on this the two objects can never meet because there are an infinite number of halfs between them, it is a paradox because in reality the two objects can and do meet.

So yes 1% or .000001% of the infinite that is Yah is still infinite, but that does not mean I can't take the numbers 1-10 and separate them from the infinite whole. So Yah can take a finite part of His infinite and separate it from the whole, just as I can take 1-10 and separate them from the whole of the numbers.

[SeekingYah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_par ... my_paradox" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Miles]

I believe I understand, but in the same way, you and I can be thought of as fraction of YHWH. As I mentioned before I think the question that really needs to be answered is, what is the ancient Hebraic understanding of the Messiah? Is the Messiah part God or a Shaliach of God? And why?

[SeekingYah]

I'm afraid I don't get what you mean by, "in the same way, you and I can be thought of as a fraction of YHWH." How so? Yah is infinite, but He is not everything.

The understanding I have is that there are 3 parts to Yahowsha, spirit, soul and body. Only one of those parts is a part of Yah, the spirit. This is explains why His last words were, "My God, My God why have you forsaken me." The part of Yahowsha that was God, the spirit, had separated itself from the body and soul, it had to to allow them to die and complete the mission. Then the body was laid in a tomb where it was incinerated according to Pesach instructions, and the soul descended into sheowl. The part of Yahowsha that was God, the spirit, returned to the whole of God at that point.

This also explains why He asked that the cup pass from Him, the part of Him that was not God did not wish to endure what was coming.

I think this understanding explains pretty much every verse you cited.

As for the Hebraic understanding, TWTY-Admin has laid out a number of verses that really leave no other understanding than that He was Yahowah, at least a part of Him was a part of Yahowah.

[Miles]

To say there is no other understanding other than the one you hold isn't very helpful in gaining additional understanding. If you are positive that the Hebraic understanding of the Messiah is not a Shaliach but instead a "part God" type person then there's no where to go with this. I understand why you believe what you do and that it makes sense to you (and many others). I'm not positive of the Hebraic understanding since I grew up in Western culture with a Greek mindset and I believe one can not understand the scriptures fully from a mindset that is vastly different from the one the writers of the scriptures held. Have you investigated the concept of the Shaliach? Did you know that a Shaliach is respected as or even called the person they represent?