Do You Believe ...

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Peace greetings,

Do you people here believe "Yahshua IS Yahweh" ("Jesus IS God") or that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being or do you believe as I do that he is the Messiah and the son of Yahweh ("God") and that he came into existence in his mother's womb? Do you also believe that Mariam was a virgin when Yahshua was born. I also do not believe this.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

Yahshua Born of a Virgin?
http://www.freewebs.com/frank4yahweh/pareidolia.htm

[Rob]

Yup I believe Yahweh and Yahushua are the same and that His manifestation not only existed but was active before His birth. I have no reason not to believe Mariam was a virgin - I don't have an issue with either the "young woman" or "sexually inactive" side of things but then I have never really looked much into that.

[TWTY-Admin]

Rob pretty much said it.

"Young Woman", "Virgin" or "sexually inactive" are actually all meanings of the Hebrew 'almah/עלמה in Isaiah 7:14: no one has actually proven that when 'almah/עלמה is used in the Tanakh, it doesn't mean "virgin" in the place that it's used.

In fact, 'almah/עלמה is used in Genesis 24:43 to denote a virgin, when it's talking about Isaac finding himself a wife: “I came today to the spring and said, ‘O Yahweh, the God of my master Abraham, if now you are prospering the way that I go, behold, I am standing by the spring of water. Let the virgin ('almah/עלמה) who comes out to draw water, to whom I shall say, “Please give me a little water from your jar to drink,” and who will say to me, “Drink, and I will draw for your camels also,” let her be the woman whom Yahweh has appointed for my master’s son.’ - As it turns out, the "virgin" that appears soon after is Rebekah, are we really to believe that Isaac is just looking for a "young woman" to be his wife, even if she's already been sexually active?

The usual explanation given against 'almah/עלמה meaning "virgin" in Isaiah 7:14 is the apparent fact that the "actual" Hebrew word for 'virgin' is bethuwlah/בתולה - however, as all the lexicons show, bethuwlah/בתולה also has several different meanings, one of which is just "a girl of marriageable age" (TWOT) without bringing any meaning of "virgin" into it.

Proof of this can be seen in Joel 1:8, where it is usually translated as "virgin" in the sentence: Lament like a virgin (bethuwlah/בתולה) wearing sackcloth for the bridegroom of her youth. However, the word translated as "bridegroom" - ba'al/בעל - is really used in such contexts to mean "husband", rather than bridegroom (which actually is also used of a recently married man, not just one who's about to be married). The sentence makes a lot more sense when translated: Lament like the young woman wearing sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

So, the argument that "Isaiah would've used bethuwlah rather than 'almah if he meant to say virgin" falls flat, as both words are used to refer to similar things.

So yes, I most certainly trust Lucus when he states that Miriam was a "virgin" prior to her becoming pregnant through Yahweh's Spirit - there's no reason at all to think that's a lie on his part.

[Frank4YAHWEH]

Hope of Israel Ministries gave me a number of reasons not to believe that the Messiah was not born of a virgin through their studies that they have made available:

Virgin Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/773295646/virgin-birth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for Yahshua and Yahweh being the same being:

YAHWEH & YAHSHUA
Are They One and the Same Being?
By Voy Wilks, Cisco, Texas
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/712187271 ... same-being" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rob]

Gotta say - that's a very weak argument for Yahuweh and Yahushua not "being one". We are walking in JW logic territory here... Haven't looked at the virgin birth one yet.

[TWTY-Admin]

I have, and I gotta say that I'm sick and tired of seeing the same old tired arguments brought forward with absolutely no proof.

Let's take the "Virgin myth" stories.

The first one mentioned is apparently the "Virgin Queen" of Egypt "Mut-em-ua" giving birth to a Pharaoh named "Amenkept".

Main problems with this: firstly, she's not called "Mut-em-ua" but actually "Mutemwiya". In fact, I couldn't find a single reputable source for her being named "Mut-em-ua"; only websites that repeated the same gunge that Hope-of-Israel has on it's own pages - proof that they're all just copying from each other, rather than bothering to check whether the claims are true.

Secondly: He's not called "Amenkept III" either - it's actually Amenhotep III being referred to as (which H.o.I. also calls "Amenophis" - thankfully the name that led me to find which Pharaoh was being referred to). Again, I could find no reputable source that said that "Amenhotep" could ever be known as "Amenkept", but only found the name on websites that were again repeating what is seen on H.o.I's site word for word.

For further information on the actual Pharaoh being mentioned - Amenhotep III - refer to the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenhotep_III" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Plus you know what is missing from the Wikipedia page? That there was ever a myth or tradition about Amenhotep III being born of a "Virgin" Queen. If even Wikipedia doesn't have such information on it (let's face it, if there was any such credibility to a story about Amenhotep being born of a Virgin, no one would resist being able to put it on Wikipedia), where on earth are these websites getting their information from? I noticed that H.o.I gives absolutely no source for this "myth", and also quotes that this "myth" story apparently materialised "2000 years before the Christian era". Which is kinda funny, especially as Amenhotep III wasn't born until about 1400 BCE, which isn't "2000 years before the Christian Era".

I wouldn't worry though - only about 200 other websites quote the exact same thing, all giving no source at all for such an idea.

Thirdly: There is no Egyptian god named "Taht". Not a single one. It took me ages to find out whom "Taht" could actually be, and the best I could find would be the god Thoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;); and not surprisingly, I could find no link between Thoth and Amenhotep III. This is also true for the apparent separate god "Kneph". Again, There is no Egyptian god named Kneph. "Kneph" actually "refers to a motif, variously a winged egg, a globe surrounded by one or more serpents, or Amun in the form of a serpent called Kematef. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneph" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)". Nevertheless, I couldn't find any information about Amun being in the form of a serpent named "Kematef" - main point: no Egyptian god named Kneph.

H.o.I also regurgitates the tied "Horus was born of the virgin Isis" myth concerning the myth. Horus was actually conceived after Isis had found and brought back together again the dismembered body of her god-husband Osiris, created a golden phallus (as Isis couldn't find Osiris' penis - good old Egyptian myths), then magically revived him, then through their sexual union, Isis got impregnated by Osiris (who again died and became the god of the underworld) with the child that would become the god Horus. You can't have a sexual union with someone and still be called a "virgin" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

Then frankly, I just stopped reading, as there's just no point if all H.o.I is repeating is the mindful diarrhea of idiots.

The only "hope for Israel" is if the entire "hope-for-israel.org" website was taken offline. Rampant stupidity of this sort should not be tolerated.

One day, I'll go through each and all of these ridiculous websites and prove to the world just how moronic and deluded their owners are

[TWTY-Admin]

(Split the other posts from this topic, because they weren't actually questions concerning TWTY. Moved to here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4547" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )