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The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:17 pm
by willbrinsonferguson
Does any one have a list of the occurances where the Masorete scribes replaced The Sacred Name with AILOHEEM and ADONAI? I do not mean where they misvowel pointed The Sacred Name, but where they flat out rendered It as most English translators do.

If so please post the list here.

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:20 pm
by Swalchy
A worthy task if I ever saw one.

If someone does have such a list, could I have permission to put it up on TWTY?

This would obviously require someone to have gone through all the Dead Sea Scrolls and checked each and every instance of Yahuweh's name in them, and then compared it to the Masoretic text.

Gimmie 5 mins, I'll quickly check the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible to see if I can find any quick examples of this

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:12 pm
by willbrinsonferguson
Actually all they would have had to have done would be able to read the Masorete text marginal notes, because I am told that they admitted when and where they did such in their side notes. I figured since the 6th century some one would have made a list by now. Personally I can not read Hebrew or I would have just simply read the Masorete' notes myself.

But if you can read the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls, could you look up Psalms 110:1 and let me know if it says "Yehowah said unto Yehowah"? Some one told me that the Masoretes admitted changing the Sacred Name to ADONAI in this verse and I was wondering if it was true. If one could read the Masoretes side notes on this pasage or double check the Dead Sea Scrolls I would apreciate it.

I can not see why it would be illegal to post a list of these occurences, it would seem that the copy rights on the Masoretes side notes would be in public domain by now. Of corse I would need them to be translated though. If such a list existed in the public domain it would be totally legal to post it here for sure.

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:27 pm
by YahTselem
Psalm 110:1 says.. "Yahowah reveals and declares to the foundation of the temple and the upright pillar (‘dn), sit, dwell, and remain (yashab - be seated and abide, inhabit as your home, be settled and stay, restore and renew) at my right hand."

most English translations would render 'dn as adonay, but it can just as easily be rendered adon/edon, which means upright one or upright pillar or our foundation, base, pedestal (this is the case in all instances where it is found next to Yahowah). Using Logos, and using those same Hebrew letters, TWOT shows it as "pedestal, foundation" and says "base into which pegs were inserted to hold planks and pillars upright" and says "God infers that He is the one who established the earth's footings, laid creation's cornerstone, and saw the securing of the creation". CHALOT shows "pedestal". BDB says "base, pedestal (and mentions the tabernacle). GHCLOT says "foundation of a column, base, pedestal". NASB dictionaries says "base, pedestal"

Unless I am mistaken, you cannot check the DSS on Psalm 110 cuz it's not in the DSS. To answer the question, in some cases they replaced "Yahowah with Adonay" and in some cases "Adonay" is there, but as explained above it was not intended to mean lord.

Let me give you just one small example and please look it up yourself. Yashayahu (Isaiah) 61:1: just the first few words.. it starts out in the ESV as saying "the spirit of the Lord God". The NIV says "The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD", the KJV says "the spirit of the Lord God". The Hebrew words are "Ruwach(spirit) Adonay(Lord) YaHoWaH(God)". But in the Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls:Bible reference Index, known as the DSS, and it predates the Masorites versions by 1200 years. Guess what? It says Ruwach(spirit), it says Yahowah(God), but it does NOT say Adonay(Lord). The history is that the Masorites added in Adonay with no scriptural basis whatsoever.... just one example of MANY.

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:06 pm
by Swalchy
YT is quite right. Unfortunately, neither Psalm 110 or 111 is extant amongst the DSS.

However, the Greek Septuagint has "Εἶπεν ὁ ΚΣ τῷ ΚΩ μου Κάθου ἐκ δεξιῶν μου" ("Said Yahuweh to the Master my, 'Sit from right My' "), the ΚΣ and ΚΩ being placeholders for Yahuweh's name, or meaning "Master".

It's too bad the DSS don't have Psalm 110. I'd have loved to have seen what it said.

And YT is quite right about 'eden. Just did a quick search on the ESV-OT Reverse Interlinear for all instances of אֶדֶן/'eden, and unsurprisingly, it actually brings up all the times it has "Lord" as a supposed translation of 'adonay (All 831 times).

The only difference between either 'adon or 'eden, is, as YT rightly stated, what vowel-points the Masorites gave them (See the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testamnt no. 27a for its meanings for 'eden.)

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:36 pm
by willbrinsonferguson
I was reading a study on A-D-N-I in Psalm, 110:1 (see: ... lm_110.pdf" onclick=";return false;). And then I heard some one say on the radio that it was actually supposed to be Yehowah instaed of ADONAI. So I had one person telling me FOUNDATION while the other was telling me YEHOWAH.

I would look this stuff up myself but I can not read the Hebrew yet. I am at this point still trying to learn the letters. I can not read Greek either.

I still have not been able to find an English translation of the Masorete' side notes at this point either.

The only things that I would like to ask at this moment is:
1) YahTselem, what Anceint text were you translating from?, and
2) can anybody read what the Masoretes say in their sidenotes to Psalms 110:1 and translate it into English here?

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:56 pm
by YahTselem
Using Logos and the tools I listed in my earlier post, The Hebrew I was translating from was using a word by word from the AFAT (Hebrew bible - anderson forbes analysed text) and also the LHI (Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear bible).

PS- you do not need to be able to read Hebrew really. Using tools such as Logos, you can see what the definition of each of the words is in English, so being able to read Hebrew and/or Greek is of course helpful, but you can do just as much without knowing the ancient languages just by using the tools. (I only know a limited amount of Hebrew so I rely heavily on Logos to let me use all the interlinears and lexicons to see what was actually said). As for Ps 110 not being in the DSS, my suggestion is to find other verses that are in the DSS because there are plenty of them. As for what the Masoretes side notes, I have no idea.. I would help w that, but I am really busy doing an amplified translation of Shemowth - Names (Exodus).

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:20 am
by willbrinsonferguson
YahTselem, I do not have LOGOS nore can I afford it right now.

The reason I was wondering about this verse in particular is because I am doing a study on the Anointed One having become Named Yehowah. I can use this verse in my article if I can prove that the Masoretes rendered Yehowah as Adonai. So I will have to continue to try and find out what the Masorete' Notes on Psalma 110:1 say.

Thanks for the help.

Ps. 110:1 says "Yehowah said to my Foundation, come and sit on my right hand" and then verse 5 refers to "my Lord" being on His right hand.

The marginal notes in the Masoretic Text referring to verse 5 gives the original reading as Yehowah indicating this was one of the scribes emendations where they altered the text to read "Adonai"[my Lord].

There was also a copy found in the Cairo Geniza which reads "Yehowah" in verse 5.
[The Cairo Geniza discovery, are an archive of ancient Yehu-Dish manuscripts discovered in the 1890’s, in the synagogue of Fostat-Cairo, Egypt, which had been originally built in 882 C.E. Among the documents discovered were biblical manuscripts from a time when the Masoretic Text was not yet finalized.]

(Ps. 110:1a) "Yehowah said to my Foundation: 'Sit at my right hand...'"
Whereby Yehowah is at Yehowah' right hand...(e.g. - Ps. 110:5a).

The Masorete scribe fudged "Aden" [Foundation] with the vowel points of "adon" [lord] because they could not stand the thought of a preExistant Anointed One just as they profaned The Sacred Name by adding the vowel points of adonai.

According to the Midrash the masorete' second “Lord” in Ps. 110:1 is The Aointed One:

The Lord said to my Lord, Sit you at My right hand.
To the Anointed One it will also be said, and in mercy the throne be established…
(Midrash Tehillim on Ps. 110:1)

And according to the Zohar, Ps. 110:1 has One aspect of the Ailoheem speaking to Another aspect of the Ailoheem:

Rabbi Simeon further gave an exposition of the verse:
The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand
Until I make your enemies your footstool (Ps. 110:1)
“The Lord says unto my Lord”: to wit, the upper grade [of the Ailoheem], said to the lower [grade of the Ailoheem], “sit at My right hand”,
(Zohar 1:50b)

In reality Psalms 110:1 is prophecying of a time when our Heavenly Father Yehowah speaks to His only begotten Son, Whom after being resurected just inherited The Sacred Name of His Father.

{Yahu-Khawnawn [John] 17:11}
“And I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,
and I come to You. Set-Apart Father,
so that they might be one, as We are.

{Revelation 19:12-13}
And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and
and having been dressed in a robe dipped in blood –

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:48 am
by Swalchy
Thanks for the list of verses there, WBF. I'll check the DSS to see which of those verses are extant, and which have Yahuweh where the Masorites put Adonai instead :)

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:07 am
by willbrinsonferguson
This is an updated revision of the previous listings. a key is provided to show the changes made, and also help make sense of the instances that are not seemingly cut and dry. This is a corrected version of the list found at:" onclick=";return false;

YHWH replaced with Adonai by the Masorete scribes 134 instances, as follows, according to the official list given in the Massorah: (Ginsburg' ed. of The Massorah, §§107-15.)

Beresheeth[Genesis] 18:3,27,30,32; 19:18; 20:4.
Shemoth[Exodus] 4:10,13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9,9.
Bemidbar[Numbers] 14:17.
Yahu-Shuah[Joshua] 7:8.
Shopheteem[Judges] 6:15; 13:8.
Melakheem[1Kings] 3:10,15; 22:6.
Melakheem[2Kings] 7:6; 19:23.
Yesha-Yahu[Isaiah] 3:17,18; 4:4; 6:1,8,11; 7:14,20; 8:7; 9:8,17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6,8,16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14,16; 49:14.
Yekhezk-Ail[Ezekiel] 18:25,29; 21:13; 33:17,29.
Awmoce[Amos] 5:16; 7:7,8; 9:1.
Zakhar-Yahu[Zechariah] 9:4.
Meekah-Yahu[Micah] 1:2.
Tehilleem[Psalms] 2:4; 16:2; 22:19,30; 30:8; 35:3,17,22; 37:13; 38:9,15,22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11,17,19,22,26,32; 73:20; 77:2,7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3,4,5,8,9,12,15; 89:49,50; 90:1,17; 110:5; 130:2,3,6.
Dawnee-Ail[Daniel] 1:2; 9:3,4,7,9,15,16,17,19,19,19.
Ekah[Lamentation] 1:14,15,15; 2:1,2,5,7,18,19,20; 3:31,36,37,58.
Ezraw[Ezra] 10:3.
Nekhem-Yahu[Nehemiah] 1:11; 4:14.
Eiyobe[Job] 28:28.

(NOTE: Where verses are written twice or more, such as Shemoth [Exodus] 34:9,9 means there it has been changed 2 times within the same verse, and Dawnee-Ail[Daniel] 9:19,19,19 means there it has been changed 3 times within the same verse)

The following list shows where YHWH was treated in the same manner, yet being replaced with Ailoheem: (Ginsburg' ed. of The Massorah, §§107-115.)

[Where the KJV (a.k.a.- A.V.) has "God"]
Dibre haYameem[1Chronicles] 13:12; 14:10,11,14,16; 16:1.
Tehilleem[Psalms] 14:1,2,5; 53:1,2,4,5.

Key to list above:

Underlined are corrected verse # from the internet listing

Red could not figure out why they are on the list

Purple, pick one or the other, but pick one and reinstall The Sacred Name in place of one of the instances of Ailoheem.

Red underlined italics could very well be Yah Yehowah ( ?)

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:41 am
by Swalchy
Thanks for the link to the Companion Bible, WBF. I shall have a read of that

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:08 am
by Noel
Hello Stephen.
I know you are a busy chap, but I wondered if you would just have a look at this site" onclick=";return false;
as it makes the most outlandish claims about people who are calling him Yahwah and also about the name Jesus etc. There is a section towards the end which deals with the greek and I am unable to verify whether the site is well researched, or the most terrible deception I have ever seen. Which ever way, it seems to have been a well researched document which comes out with a completely different conclusion about God's name than we all think. I have not been taken in by it, but need to be able to point a friend of mine who has been reading it in the right direction.

Hope you are well and will spend a few minutes looking at it.


Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:57 pm
by Swalchy
Seen that website before Noel - it's complete and utter rubbish.

Also, i refuse to click on the popup just to read his turd.

I'll give a more thorough response to it if you so desire other than "it's rubbish", but I honestly don't think it's worth either my or any body else's time :)

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:19 pm
by willbrinsonferguson
for one anyone that defends the name Jesus can not be much of an expert. And even if they have degrees in languages and the linguistics thereof they have strayed from the truth whereby their conclusion is pure ludicrous. Even if one were to transliterate the Greek transliteration of the Anointed One's Name it would not be pronounced JEE-zush by no means. Secondly as for pronouncing Hebrew names Greek texts can only be used as a second witness, and that (usually) as a sure fire way how not to pronounce a Hebrew name (especially after having been Hellenized whereby its Hebrewness was washed away).

The website mixes truth with lies to make most of their claims. But I will not say that they are lying on purpose, as they could either be just learning from cruising the Internet whereby confused or possibly given over to a reprobate mind for refusing truth. Either way even though you could glean some from them I totally recommend not wasting time with this sites rubbish.

If you look at their Hallelujah article you can quikly see how they twist even what they claim. They claim that the Hebrew word heylel means lucifer and then turn around and claim it means praise and that the ia represents the name Lucifer. And yes heylel and halal are diferent forms of the same root but, how can the word heylel translate out as lucifer for praise while being represented by ia in alleluia? If Allelu means praise then alleluia can not mean praise lucifer. Within two paragraph this fellow has turned against his own knowledge. I am posting the first two paragraphs here for connivance. And yes heylel is a form of halal which means praise, but you can not use heylel for lucifer and then claim thay halleluia means praise lucifer. the ia does not stand for lucifer nor does it represent the word praise. The ia in alleluia stands for the Short Form of The Divine Name - i.e. - Yah. So halleluYah means "praise Yah" not "praise lucifer".

Hallelujah, More Facts
(By Pastor G. Reckart)
The Hebrew word "heylel" (Strong's #1966) is a very interesting word. It is translated "lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12. In other Psalms it's root "halal" (Strong's #1984) is translated "praise." In Revelation chapter 19 scholars claim the root of "alleluia" comes from this Hebrew word. As Apostolic believers we are confronted with something as diabolic as the trinity. Maybe even more so. Because if "heylel" is lucifer, and if lucifer is the devil, satan, the old dragon, the demonic fallen angel, then we must NEVER use "heylel" in any association to Jesus.

It is impossible to have "heylel" as lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 and then have saints in heaven crying out to Jesus "allelu-ia". That would be the same as crying out "praise "ia" or praise 'ya" which is the same as praise-lucifer. Making Jesus lucifer by calling him "ya" is unacceptable. And the person in the text of Isaiah 14:12 we now identify as "ya" would be an evil to great for my mouth to praise.
(" onclick=";return false; )

And even though he (as well as many others) claim that we should not call The Anointed One "Lucifer", the Catholic Church has been doing it for thousands of years now (See:" onclick=";return false;).

So as you can see by the time one reads the whole article they will have been taken around in circles just to be lead unto ridiculous ludicrous conclusions. Why bother, yeah/no?

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:01 pm
by Noel
thanks for your replies. The only reason I am bothering with this site is because a friend of mine who I am trying to tell the truth to is using this site as a way out.


Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:47 pm
by StevePaige
Here is a site that delves into ancient and paleo hebrew to show how many European languages are closer to old Hebrew than modern Hebrew:

There are a bunch of articles and the author appears to be thorough.

Would like any feedback. Thanks.

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:57 am
by Swalchy
Hi Steve,

If I get some time at work this week, I'll have a look over some of that.

A quick glance doesn't hold much promise for me. However, seeing that this site is mainly ran by women is a massive breath of fresh air.

Sick of all the male-only websites with regards to Scripture out there (yes, including mine :P)

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:33 am
by StevePaige

Here is a web site that says that the oo sound in Yahuweh is unsupported:

Sorry about the horrendous layout of the site.

Where would I find a good reference for vocalizations of Hebrew? I do not mean to be a bother but the time that I can spend researching is extremely limited.

Thanks for any help that you can give me here.

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:18 am
by Swalchy
Hi Steve,

As I can see that the only "source" that site uses is the Strong's concordance, I truly do not care what they have to say on any subject when it comes to Hebrew. Strong's Concordance has a very basic lexicon at the back, so using that as a basis for one's Hebrew teaching and/or pronunciation is horrendously stupid. Pretty much like the owners of that site.

As for good references... I truly can't think of any off the top of my head." onclick=";return false; was where I started, so I'd start there.

When it comes to other things, there's more than enough people speaking Hebrew on YouTube. The other places to look are just for the usual books that are Scriptural Hebrew introductions. Amazon's probably the best place to start looking. Most of the "introductions" are pretty much the same, so you can't really go wrong with any of them :)

Re: The rendering of The Sacred Name

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:40 pm
by StevePaige
:D Thanks.

And have a happy secular familial gift giving December 25th...if that is what you do. :D