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Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

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Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Swalchy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:18 am

Just the topic to coincide with the new update on TWTY.

Questions, comments, etc. All welcome. Guest should also be allowed to post in here soon.

Stephen

http://thewaytoyahuweh.com/pdf/pages/qp ... s_text.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:28 am

Well done :)

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby danshelper » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:43 pm

Wow Stephen, thank you for all the painstaking detail of this study. I appreciate the translation accuracy statistics – this is very helpful. And the assessment of charis/grace is fantastic. Your reminder is such an important one for us all – to “examine, test, scrutinize and determine the genuineness” of people’s words.

Through the whole QP discussion, I’ve failed to see Paul’s writings in any way contradict the Messiah’s message and life. Analogies can only come close to explaining a reality, but this is one that is meaningful to me:

My grandfather invented one of the first seismographs, which we all know measures seismic activity. The Leet Seismograph did not create or alter seismic activity, it just measured the activity and the resulting changes in geographical landscape. This is how I see Paul’s letters – they measured the spiritual seismic activity of the life, death, resurrection, ascension and Spirit-outpouring of the Messiah, and the resulting changes in the spiritual “landscape.”
Paul, like all the RC writers, recorded the activity and the resulting shifts to the spiritual landscape – all according to the tools they had been given at the time.

Thanks again Stephen, for this detailed analysis of Galations translations.

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Swalchy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:04 pm

Loving the analogy there DH :)
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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:12 pm

Karen - yet again your analogies are awesome lol

That is about spot on to who I think Paul was - a human guy doing his best to sort out a load of mess. We are never going to see the full picture because we don't have it, we just have replies... and as Swalchy has pointed out, Paul likes to talk... sounds a bit like me when he gets going - on and on lol But then it's such a huge topic... Where do you start and where do you end without missing something important? Thats a question I face every day.

So yea I think he is going to be wrong about things and yes I think he is going to be right too - but like I said we don't have the right context the best we know is that he was doing his best, people were out to get him and he was a victim of fraudulent writings.

Nicely put Karen :)

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Swalchy » Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:23 pm

*sighs*

Having read the comments in the thread at YN, it is apparent that none of them have even bothered to read the review, and all have practically misunderstood what it's about (because they haven't read it).

Thinking the review is about Paul, when in actuality, it's about determining whether QP's translation of Galatians can be trusted or not, and whether it's an accurate translation of the words seen in Galatians.


Bitterly disappointing. I expected better from such people who claim that they think.
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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby YT » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Hey guys. it's been awhile. I've had a little correspondence w/ Swalchy w/ emails, but it's been forever since I've chatted w Rob, so Hi Rob. This may seem odd, but I read your review... but I have not read any of QP/grt gal debate - none. Frankly, at this point, I'm not going to.. There's so much controversy over it that I don't know what to think - and I fear that if I dive into it that it will sidetrack me from learning about the Torah - which I need to learn better so I can have a solid foundation. anyways, what's important to me right now is to learn about Yah and his scriptures/Torah. Swalch, if you don't agree with a lot of the way that QP was translated, then I have an important question.. Do you feel the same way about YY? I mean YY (in addition to other writings like 2 Babylons, Fossilized customs, etc) is what brought me away from religion and into a real relationship w Yah. In the interest of not trusting man, but rather trusting Yah, A year ago I got Logos original languages and started digging in to trying to translate myself. My goals are to piece together what you've done in translating the first century writings, and what's in YY and what James has put together and then fill in the blanks w my own translations so that I have a full translation that doesn't make me sick like the English translations do. Easier said than done. Translating is hard, so it's taking awhile to get a grip on it. I do realize that there are a lot of word choices to use when translating.. it's pretty much never word for word, which seems to leave room for error, although the general meaning of what is being said should be the same unless there is foul play. I'm currently working on Jeremiah, only because that's where we were in our family reading when I stopped reading to the kids because even the "Scriptures" version on E-sword was making me ill. :!: -YT

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Swalchy » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:03 pm

Hey guys. it's been awhile. I've had a little correspondence w/ Swalchy w/ emails, but it's been forever since I've chatted w Rob, so Hi Rob.
Hey YT - glad you were able to post :) (obviously got the "guest posting" thing working!)
This may seem odd, but I read your review... but I have not read any of QP/grt gal debate - none. Frankly, at this point, I'm not going to.. There's so much controversy over it that I don't know what to think - and I fear that if I dive into it that it will sidetrack me from learning about the Torah - which I need to learn better so I can have a solid foundation.
Well, at least one person read it!

And I'd certainly agree with the "sidetracked" bit. But seeing as though QP is going to be infecting the internet and peoples minds as long as it stays up, I had put off going through it (well, at least the translational bit), until a point when I had read several statements in it that were just outright lies and deceit. And we're told to always criticise and point out peoples lies and deceitful statements. "Judge with righteous judgement" as Yahushua said (John 7:24).

Swalch, if you don't agree with a lot of the way that QP was translated, then I have an important question.. Do you feel the same way about YY?
The old iteration of YY? No, I had a very difficult time finding anything wrong with the translations then.

The new iteration, I wouldn't be as so sure, if the renditions seen in QP are to go by.
I mean YY (in addition to other writings like 2 Babylons, Fossilized customs, etc) is what brought me away from religion and into a real relationship w Yah.
It wasn't all too different with me. Although my journey away from religion didn't start with YY, it was certainly a major stepping stone. However, I wouldn't point anyone towards it now.
In the interest of not trusting man, but rather trusting Yah, a year ago I got Logos original languages and started digging in to trying to translate myself. My goals are to piece together what you've done in translating the first century writings, and what's in YY and what James has put together and then fill in the blanks with my own translations so that I have a full translation that doesn't make me sick like the English translations do. Easier said than done. Translating is hard, so it's taking a while to get a grip on it. I do realize that there are a lot of word choices to use when translating.. it's pretty much never word for word, which seems to leave room for error, although the general meaning of what is being said should be the same unless there is foul play. I'm currently working on Jeremiah, only because that's where we were in our family reading when I stopped reading to the kids because even the "Scriptures" version on E-sword was making me ill. :!: -YT
Glad to hear this. Feel free to share any and all translations you have done. That's actually what this forum is actually all about :)

And I would encourage (more, require) anyone and everyone to check the renderings of Scripture as seen on YY, and those seen here on TWTY as well.

As you've said, "in the interest of not trusting man". And that means every man
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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby YahTselem » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:32 pm

Thanks for the response. Okay, I registered, so now I'm not just a guest. I have all of the older YY material saved, so if I don't agree w the new stuff, I will simply just use the original. However, I just started reading the new YY prelude (which is not finished) and so far it seems fine and he even goes into more detail as far as his method of translation which I found helpful.

As for my translation of Yirmayahuw, I started in Ch 19 only cuz that's where me and the family left off, but I have been spending the time learning to translate and therefore I have very little actually translated, so I only have 3 verses done which took a long time. :lol: but I will post when I have a decent amount done, like at least a chapter..

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Swalchy » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:31 pm

Thanks for the response. Okay, I registered, so now I'm not just a guest. I have all of the older YY material saved, so if I don't agree w the new stuff, I will simply just use the original. However, I just started reading the new YY prelude (which is not finished) and so far it seems fine and he even goes into more detail as far as his method of translation which I found helpful.
I had a quick glance through the new prelude, and the 156 "Paul" references were hardly surprising, and the false information regarding the Septuagint (specifically page 141) is quite telling of how far YY has fallen.

And if his explanation of his translational process in the new YY prelude is anything like the one seen in Chapter 7 of QP, then there's only one thing to say: Yah help us all.
As for my translation of Yirmayahuw, I started in Ch 19 only cuz that's where me and the family left off, but I have been spending the time learning to translate and therefore I have very little actually translated, so I only have 3 verses done which took a long time. :lol: but I will post when I have a decent amount done, like at least a chapter..
This is absolutely fantastic. Trust me - the more you translate, the more you'll get better at it :)
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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby YahTselem » Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:12 pm

Thanks for the heads up. I'll get a better feel for the prelude once I finish reading it - and I will be keeping an open mind and checking things for myself.

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:10 pm

Hi Hi! :D

I think my issue with the whole issue isn't anything to do with Paul really but the false statements based on absolutely nothing that are now taken as fact. YY was always a voice for truth, however much truth there was the goal was always to be as truthful as possible. This has now been destroyed in light of this work, and the response of the community is disappointing and shameful to be frank.

The other issue is if you go against what is said you are a Paul supporter -and no matter how many ways or times you try and get the point across that you're not really, nothing seems to sit.

Religion is born again.

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby YahTselem » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:45 am

Thanks for the insights Rob. As for the reaction of the community, I did notice some apologies over there the last couple days (in the posts). I just hope we can all focus on Yah, as we are running out of Taruwah harvests fast :shock: :P

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:32 am

Well I am not really speaking about the harshness of people's response - but rather the blindness. :(

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby YahTselem » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:18 pm

The other issue is if you go against what is said you are a Paul supporter -and no matter how many ways or times you try and get the point across that you're not really, nothing seems to sit.
I remember you mentioning that before..hard to get your point across when everyone seems to have propaul or antipaul glasses on.

I do have questions because the more I read into this, the more confused I get.
Is it that cw is generally right about paul, but he is stretching the truth to make paul look worse than he was? So, don't trust paul's writings, but also don't trust cw's translations?
Or is it that he is totally wrong about paul and paul was who he said he was and should/can be trusted? perhaps some of paul's writings can be trusted and some can't?
Is it something in between that or something else entirely?
The bigger issue is that Yahushua speaks highly of torah(no arguments there) and it seems paul is speaking lowly of torah, or is he?

Do I need to read about this more to come to a conclusion, or is that going to confuse me even more? :?

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:18 pm

In my view - Paul was who he said he was. But via editing by Marcion and letters being forged by writers was created into a tool to drive people away from Torah.

Can reading Paul still be useful? Sure if done in context, but you must also take in the context that Paul never wrote scripture and was replying to situations and correspondence we know nothing about, so in my view I don't think he is 100% useful. To be honest I do sit along the lines of it's ok to ignore Paul.

Paul was a man trying to do his best in some bad situations. He was accepted by The Apostles (the 12) and traveled around doing his best to squash tradition and replace it with trust and reliance. Everything else has been piled upon him - saying that he started "paid ministry" by appointing elders and deacons and saying that he is evil because he is calling himself an apostle to me shows you have fallen right into the trap. This is the image that Church and anti paul type people have been trying to push probably since not long after his death.

Both get stuck in the mirage that was spun, the plastic paul - Torah hating and Church hierarchic building.

Something along those lines lol

EDIT: The most important thing is to refect as much truth as we have fact for. We must take the evidence we have and build a picture the best we can, we can't just make stuff up it serves no purpose other than to promote someone elses agenda. The truth is strong enough to stand on it's own - and we should not be afraid of what that is. Serving lies is counter productive, and at the very least is a mark against our claim of seeking truth.

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby YahTselem » Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:31 pm

Thanks for the explanation Rob. That helps a lot.

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:02 pm

wow it made sense? lol

To be frank - I am still not settled on the whole issue - but I think the above kinda reflects that :)

I do believe Galatians to be a forgery though - that destroys Christianity anyway. I believe Galatians has become a bit of a looking glass as to say. If you look through Galatians at the rest of the Paul related writings you can make out a more anti Torah view point, especially with the way it is translated. But if you remove that looking glass and see what it says on it's own you see a guy who is trying to get a message across that is very much the same as what we all thing. Torah is vital yet the spiritual is more important - if you think of the context he was speaking against a load of Pharisees who believed and taught the Torah was only understood via their own Oral laws.

But anyway that's enough blabbering, and the morel is we should strive for Truth and be accountable to people in that, then we will actually have something to offer.

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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Swalchy » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:17 pm

Well, it's been a few weeks now, and I've only had one person email me about it.

Over 70 downloads though, so I dunno what's going on. Other than some stupid responses over at the YN forum (Big R's latest one springs to mind), I'll just assume that people have read and understood everything in it, and so don't need to ask me any questions.

Although I am apparently "hiding" behind a website, despite the fact that anyone can contact me via email, or by posting here on the forum.

Especially this section, which is open to everyone and everybody :)
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Re: Questioning Paul Review - A look at the Galatians text

Postby Rob » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:32 pm

damn your hidey and slippery underhand nature!


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