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Tribulation and Rapture

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Zolana
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Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:16 pm

Hi everyone!

Where is this rapture and tribulation stuff in the scriptures? I know there are a lot of scriptures like Acts 14:22, that say it is through much trib we enter the kingdom, but where do we find 2 separate comings? What about "every eye will see him", and "consuming the wicked with the brightness of His coming"? It seems like there is a lot of talk these days about being "Left Behind", but when you read the parables spoken of by Yehushua, it is the wicked that are taken and the good that are left. You see it in this order in all his parables. When he talks about the Harvest, it is the tares and all things that offend that are gathered and taken first. When Yehushua is talking about one taken and one left behind, out of confusion the disciples ask where are they taken? And he replies "Where ever the bodies lie, there will the vultures be gathered together."

Where does Zechariah 14 fit in to all of this?

Sorry for the quick crappy post, hopefully I didn't butcher my Master's word to much, but I am in a super big hurry! LOL See you all later! Thanks for any help!

Laurie, mother of Zoe and Lana

Rob
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Rob » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:16 am

Hi Laurie

Yup that's a wide spanning question - I find the link below useful as a reference, it's a timeline that Ken Power has drawn up from his research which puts events as he has worked them out in order with references for further looking into (he is not setting these in stone btw - it's a guestimate :D):

http://futurehistory.yadayahweh.com/Fut ... t.Prophecy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am sure Swalchy can help out in more detail with the points above too but I wanted to get that in there first :D

Zolana
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:46 am

Thanks for the reply Rob!

I believed in the 7 year tribulation all my church going life... but know that I am starting over and forgetting everything I was taught, taking a chunk off of one of Yahuweh's time prophecies doesn't make any sense to me at all. I am not saying I am right (cause I have been wrong a lot), but I was hoping to work all this out with people that are open minded and seeking the truth. You know, bouncing idea's of each other to reach a logical conclusion. If we were given a prophecy with a starting date, and told that it would last 490 years, doesn't it make sense that the end date would be 490 years from the start?

Laurie

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Swalchy
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Swalchy » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:51 am

The best place to start with this is the website that Rob has already linked to already - Ken Powers Future History. He has a chapter on there dedicated to this exact question - Getting All Caught Up

You can use that as a starter, and then if you need anything more clarifying then feel free to ask us all here.

As you can see, we love Ken because he's usually answered all the questions that people have on this subject a lot better than we could :)
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Rob » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:32 am

Can I just also add - downloading the MP3 and listening to it is a better way for people doing too much stuff to read :D

Also - Ken might not be right, but he's got a good idea. He is also up for discussing it and so are we :D

Zolana
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:21 pm

After reading a few chapters, I have to say it all seems a little strange? It still makes more sense that if Yahuweh meant 490 years He meant 490 years. Are there any other prophecies in scripture that are broken up like that? Is there a reason that it couldn't have been referring to His baptism (anointing the Most Holy) in 27ad, crucifixion 31ad, and stoning of Stephen 3 1/2 years later? This seems to fit the time table better as far as age goes, right? He was 33 when he died so a crucifiction in 33, would be a little bit off. According to most scholars he was born between 6 and 4 bc. Not trying to argue, just searching for the truth.

Also, the OT say that your forehead represents your thoughts and right hand represents your actions, so wouldn't it be safe to say that that is what the Father really cares about? I think if 4 large men pinned you down and tattooed a bar-code on you, the Father would not care. Revelations say those that are sealed have the testimony of Yehushua and are keeping the commandments, so if you fall into that category, you can't have the mark. Any thoughts? Thanks again!

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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Swalchy » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:35 am

Hi Laurie,

Contrary to what most scholars believe, I would state that the Messiah was actually born in 2 BCE, not between 6-4 BCE. The reason most scholars say He was born between 6-4 BCE is due to the fact that Flavius Josephus, a 'historian' from the end of the 1st Century CE, stated that there was a lunar eclipse before Herods death. As scientists can determine where the sun and moon were many eons ago in the past, they deduced that as there's a lunar eclipse on March the 13th in 4 BCE, the Messiah must've been at least 1 by the time Herod died, so He must've been born before the lunar eclipse, hence the birth-years given being 6-4 BCE.

Problem with this is the fact that a) Josephus isn't the most reliable historian, especially as he has a tendency to make stuff up or exaggerate numbers (like saying the Synagogues were around from the time the Israelites had exited the Sinai Wilderness), and b) what Josephus stated happened before Herod died was impossible to happen in the time limit he set for it all to happen.

The following webpage explains all the relevant data against Josephus in detail - http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/herod/herod.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nevertheless, the reason I give 2 BCE as the birth-year of the Messiah is due to the fact that Irenaeus, a Follower of the Messiah from Lyon, wrote in 180 CE that "The Sovereign Master was born about the forty-first year of the reign of Augustus" (Ireaneus - Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 21:3), and Tertullian, another Follower of the Messiah from Carthage, stated that the Messiah was born twenty-eight years after Cleopatra had comitted suicide, "...twenty and eight years after the death of Cleopatra, the Messiah is born" (Tertullian - An Answer to the Jews - Chapter 8). He also reiterates that it was the 41st year after the reign of Augustus (that is taking into account that Augustus ruled in the Second Triumvirate along with Mark Antony and Marcus Aemilius Lepidus).

As the Second Triumvirate was established in 43 BCE, and Cleopatra committed suicide in 30 BCE, the 41st year of Augustus would be 2 BCE, and the 28th year after Cleopatra's suicide was also 2 BCE, I have no doubt at all at stating that the Messiah was born in 2 BCE. This would therefore mean that Luke is right that the Messiah was "about 30" (Luke 3:1, 23) in the 15th Year of Tiberius (who started his reign as Emperor in 14 CE), corresponding to 29 CE (being born in 2 BCE, the Messiah was 1 in 1 BCE, but as there's no year 0, he was 2 in 1 CE, 11 in 10 CE, 21 in 20 CE, and so 30 in 29 CE). This would also mean that the Messiah was indeed 33 when He was crucified in 33 CE, about six months before His 34th birthday.

With regards to the mark of the beast, there is an unfortunate mistranslation in most English Bibles in that they make you think that people are forced to take the Mark of the Beast. I mean, the ESV has the verse in question (Rev 13:16) say "Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,5 qto be marked on the right hand or the forehead..." Problem with this is the fact that 1) they have not translated 12 out of the 35 Greek words in the verse, and 2) two of these omitted words are the two most important ones in the entire sentence - διδωμι/didomi/give, and αυτος/autos/themselves.

The verse should read as follows: And he makes and causes everyone, individually and collectively, the small, little and few in significance, and the great, powerful and arrogant, and the rich, those abounding in material resources, and the poor, those destitute of wealth and influence, high position and honour, and the free and unrestrained, and the slaves, servants and attendants so that and in order that they will give and grant, supply and furnish, bestow and deliver, commit and permit, extend, present and provide themselves a mark and stamp, inscription and sign, imprinted designation, brand, and idolatrous image upon their right hands or upon their foreheads... (http://www.thewaytoyahuweh.com/translat ... #chapter13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The verse isn't stating that people are being forced to take the mark - but that they are willingly giving themselves it. The false prophet is going to be so good at what he does, that people are going to fall for this "mark", and think it's everything they need.

Also, the previous verse shouldn't be omitted from people's minds: And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (Rev 13:15) People won't be forcing others to take the mark - if you refuse to worship the beast, you're going to die anyway.

Which 490 years are you referring to, btw? That's the only thing I couldn't quite understand :)
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:15 am

I was referring to the 70 weeks in Daniel chapter 9. It seems to say that those 490 years are cut off for the jewish nation. Wouldn't that mean that they are cut off of the longer time prophecy of 2300 years in the chapter before? It doesn't make sense to take part of his prophecy and move it to the future. Just some thoughts and ideas...

Starts in 457 BC
Yeshua is anointed Most Holy in 27 AD
Crucified and puts and end to sacrifice and offerings in 31 AD but not for Himself
gospel goes to the Gentiles in 34 AD at the stoning of Stephen

Another thing that I was thinking about is the scarlet cord tied between the goats horns.... that 40 years before the destruction of the temple it stopped turning white. Would that mean that he actually died in 30 AD? The prophecy says that he would put an end to sacrifice and offerings in the midst of the week, which I know is a prophetic week, but what if it was literal too. In 31 AD passover was on a Wednesday, which is the midst of the week. Any thoughts? Thank again, it really helps to see it from another prospective! Looking into the stuff on his birth and will get back to you!

Laurie

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Swalchy
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Swalchy » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:45 am

I think the main reason most split apart the weeks is because the chapter itself appears to do so.

It starts off saying there'll be 70 weeks (9:24), then I'm not sure whether it just splits these 70 weeks into the seven weeks (9:25a), 62 weeks (9:25b), then one week (9:27), or whether the seven weeks, 62 weeks and one week are added onto the 70 weeks that kicked it all off. I think the main reason people think the 70 weeks are split apart are due to the fact that seven + 62 + 1 = 70. However it must be said that the passage makes no inclination as to whether the 70 weeks are split apart, or whether the seven, 62, and one weeks are additional weeks to the initial 70 mentioned.

Furthermore, I think most interpret that the person who shall "put an end to sacrifice" is the Antichrist/Anti-Messiah, not the Messiah Himself. For the Jews of Daniels time, someone who puts an "end to the sacrifices" would've been seen as an enemy, not a saviour.

As with regards to whether the Messiah was crucified in 30 CE, unfortunately, as Passover fell on a Wednesday that year (according to http://tinyurl.com/chjws9w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), the Messiah couldn't've been crucified in that year, as all the four eyewitness accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all state that He died on a Friday. There was a long discussion on why this was so on the forums here at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:58 pm

The text reads "70 weeks are determined for your people" I think the break down of 7 weeks and 62 weeks is just a break down of the prophecy. 49 years to restore Jerusalem and then another 441 till Yeshua was baptized " anointed Most Holy". If you think about it, when He came He proclaimed the time is fulfilled. What time was He talking about? The prophecy of His coming. Its no surprise to me that the Jewish people didn't understand this prophecy, they did crucify their Messiah. So at his baptism we are at 483 of the 490 years and in the midst of the last 7 years He puts an end to the Sacrifice and Offering not for Himself but for us. Then the temple was rent and the curtain torn, and the blood sacrifice was no longer accepted as seen by the scarlet cord never turning white again.

I have not read your forum on the Friday crucifixion, but I also never read any of the gospel accounts say it was a Friday either, I will read your post. Thanks again!

Zolana
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:37 pm

Well... I read your post? That was quite lengthy! :) I guess I agree with you both in part. It appears that neither one of you will be changing your mind anyway.

Laurie

Rob
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Rob » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Hehe - I don't think unless there is some substantial evidence I have not seen yet that I will change my mind about the day that Yahushua died, everything seems to point to Friday for me and it makes sense prophetically too. But we are all for discussion, so keep posting questions, it helps for me to think about these things :)

Zolana
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:06 pm

Prophetically speaking what points to Friday? The only prophecy that points to the time of his crucifixion that I am aware of is Daniel 9, and most think that is referring to Anti Christ. Although it seems to only point to the year, if you consider midst of the week, that could be a Wednesday. And Yeshua said three days and nights which, Wednesday night Thursday night Friday night, Thursday day Friday day Saturday day, is three nights and days. As for the third day, after three day argument, this is how I see it working out: exactly 72 hours from the time he was put in the sepulcher he was raised, which was the third day, and Sunday morning he ascended to the Father with the waving of the offering. That means that after 3 days he was restored and lifted up to the Father. I know that Jewish tradition doesn't mean a lot, but in this case, the fact that they when out sabbath evening and bound the barley and cut it loose at twilight and prepared it over night to be offered in the morning... that says something here. Typing fast cause I have to get Zoe from school, but I will be back, and ultimately I like you am only after the truth, so I will be excited to learn something today!

Zolana
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:39 pm

Hm.... :? I am kind of surprised nobody has any ideas on the rapture. I believe Francisco Ribera came out with the futurist theory in an effort to take the heat off the Catholic Church, whom the reformers believed to be the Whore of Babylon and Woman riding the beast in Rev 17. The Dark ages were 1260 literal years or 42 months. I am going to gather a list of all the verses in the Holy Scriptures that talk about the Second Coming and try to make sense of this all, any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated! :)

For His Glory...

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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Swalchy » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:52 am

I'm not that surprised, actually. If you look at most of the topics of discussion around here, the rapture really isn't on peoples "I need to talk about this" list. I personally don't care either way. If there's a rapture? Great! Won't have to deal with what comes after. If there isn't a rapture? Great! I'll hopefully get to see how the end pans out.

I've seen far too many people over the years get engrossed and obsessed with absolutely everything to do with the end-times. They end up forgetting the most important thing: what are we doing for Yahuweh at the present time? The future is in His hands, and however He wants it to happen. We however should be concerned with the present moment - we have no control over the future, especially as everything to do with the future is very cryptic, and it'd take having an accurate translation of all the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures before we even really got to the surface, never mind trying to decipher what's underneath.
Prophetically speaking what points to Friday?
Absolutely nothing. Nothing points to Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday or Tuesday either. I didn't think it had to be prophetically announced which exact day of the week the Messiah would be crucified, does it? The only real prophecy regarding the crucifixion is the Feast of Passover, and its fulfillment has all eyewitnesses stating that it happened on Friday (that's going off the Greek, btw - English translations happen to all cock-up the translation. Well, that is except for William Tyndale's originally translated NT, which refers to it as "Friday" :))
The only prophecy that points to the time of his crucifixion that I am aware of is Daniel 9, and most think that is referring to Anti Christ. Although it seems to only point to the year, if you consider midst of the week, that could be a Wednesday.
Again, the cryptic writing of Daniel requires people to do a heck of a lot of guesswork. I don't have to guess the meaning of the Greek when all four eyewitnesses state that the day the Messiah was crucified on was παρασκευη/paraskeue - Friday. As demonstrated numerous times to William Priebe, παρασκευη/paraskeue is the Greek word equivalent to the English Friday. There's really no getting around this fact.
And Yeshua said three days and nights which, Wednesday night Thursday night Friday night, Thursday day Friday day Saturday day, is three nights and days. As for the third day, after three day argument, this is how I see it working out: exactly 72 hours from the time he was put in the sepulcher he was raised, which was the third day
Again, this just doesn't fit at all with what the eyewitnesses state happened. The Messiah was crucified on a Friday (παρασκευη/paraskeue); He was put in the tomb before the Sabbath Day started (προσαββατω/prosabbato/before the Sabbath); He was raised on the day of firstfruits (τη μια των σαββατων/te mia ton sabbaton/the first of Sabbaths). Either the Messiah was only in the tomb for a day, or for eight days.

In the thread with William Priebe, I went over the misunderstanding that people have over the Messiah's statement of being "in the heart of the land" - viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6&start=40#p520" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It wasn't a declaration of how long He'd be in a tomb for.
Typing fast cause I have to get Zoe from school, but I will be back, and ultimately I like you am only after the truth, so I will be excited to learn something today!
If only more people had such a mindset :)
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Zolana
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Re: Tribulation and Rapture

Postby Zolana » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:15 pm

I am surprised that you would rather argue your points on the crucifixion, than on something that really matters like end time prophecy. I believe that these false interpretations of prophecy will lead more people on to the road to destruction than what day the crucifixion took place.
The only real prophecy regarding the crucifixion is the Feast of Passover, and its fulfillment has all eyewitnesses stating that it happened on Friday
I disagree. Daniel 9 is talking about the Messiah. And Paraskeue is talking about the preparation day, not necessarily Friday. There were two preparation days that week, Wednesday for a Thursday Sabbath FOUB, and Friday for the Sabbath according to the Commandments as quoted by Luke.

In the 2 verses below it is easy to see that they bought and prepared the spices between the 2 Sabbaths on the preparation day.

Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week,

In the above verse you see that they arrived at the sepulcher on Saturday evening or Sunday morning, and he was already gone. So a Sunday Resurrection is out. He was Resurrected at twilight 72 hours after he was put in the tomb. He knew the appointed times and that is why He said " Are there not 12 hours in a day". This fits perfectly with the binding and cutting of the wave sheaf, and the fact that they prepared it and waved it the next morning, which is when you see Him being lifted up to His Father.

Also, there seems to be some good evidence to support the original writings in Aramaic, and not Greek.

Hope you are well, and God Bless! :)


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