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What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

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Royce
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What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:15 pm

I know Jewish people that don't use electricity period, not even start up their car. The times we live in are not the same so we have some guess work in figuring it all out I suppose. Do you see this as anything related to cooking food? Or what about keeping food warm with electricity? Too bad we cant crack open the Vatican vault, they probably have tons of hidden manuscripts about things like this from long ago. Did they extinguish all fires on the Shabbat or just not make new ones or just not cook? I know it was punishable by death to break this law so I am really trying to get these details ironed out. All thoughts and opinions are welcome. Thanks

Royce
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:22 pm

We always prepare out food the day before so all there is to do is grab a sandwich but then again there is electricity keeping the food cool. And as for making coffee. I always made coffee with an electric coffee pot but the last couple weeks I have been thinking if this isn't breaking the Sabbath. We dont do anything on this day that would cause us to have another do any work for us so basically we don't spend money on that day since someone must be on the other end to receive it from you and therefor must work a job. I suppose if we had robots or computer automated services that we could use then technically you wouldn't have a human working for you... See what I am getting at and why this can be confusing in our day and age? Thoughts?

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Swalchy
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Swalchy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:29 pm

Looking at the verse in question (Exodus 35:3), I notice that it comes in the same breath as "Six days shall public business ("work") be done". It's safe to say therefore that if your work requires you to "kindle a fire" as part of your "public business" (read: smithy), then you're not supposed to do that, as that is engaging in work that you expect to be paid for.

Like you Royce, I don't pay anyone anything on the Sabbath day - I make no purchases, and I pay no bills. I can also guarantee you that there is some form of Robot/Computer that continues to make sure that you are provided with Electricity and Gas, even when there's no one there to feed it anything. I currently work for a company that provides support for "building management systems", which are essentially computers with some software, attached to building appliances (including those in a Power Plant) that tell them to come off and on to a specific timing schedule. There are, rarely, people at these plant-sites on the Sabbath day - they're all pretty much Computer controlled :)

Furthermore, how would this apply to someone to lives in a cold climate? Are they not to re-light their fire that they use to keep warm, just to keep this supposed "you can NEVER, EVER have a fire!" injunction, whilst they freeze to death? I don't think that was Yahuweh's intention with this instruction here. Furthermore, I think the fact that's it's linked to the teaching regarding not doing ones public business on the Sabbath day is a strong indication of what type of fire Yahuweh had in mind.

This quote from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament also gives us some insight to the word ba'ar translated as "kindle" by most translations of Exodus:
Of the several Hebrew words which are translated “to burn” two are most often used figuratively. These are bā'ar and ḥārâ. The others, such as śārap, yāqad, and yāṣat all have to do primarily with literal burning, whereas these two are commonly used to describe anger, passion, intrigue, etc. ḥārâ is confined almost totally to usage with anger, while bā'ar stresses the consuming and contagious qualities of fire especially in the religious (aka 'cultic') context.
Also, how would a Levite Priest consider this instruction, when he is also commanded The fire on the altar shall be kept burning on it; it shall not go out. The priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and he shall arrange the burnt offering on it and shall burn on it the fat of the peace offerings. Fire shall be kept burning on the altar continually; it shall not go out. (Leviticus 6:12-13). So the Levite Priest has to make sure that he "never kindles a fire" on the Sabbath day, yet make sure that "every morning" he continues to keep the offering fire going. What if it goes out (which it isn't supposed to do - but I bet it did)? He'd be in a right pickle!
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Royce
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:12 pm

what do you do about food prep the day before?

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Swalchy
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Swalchy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:16 pm

I don't eat much, so I've already got some soup and a chicken sandwich ready for tomorrow :P
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Royce
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:30 pm

so you heat it up or prepare it or do you just have it cold?

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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Swalchy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:32 pm

Microwaved shall the soup be
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:35 pm

hahaha, man I have work to do on understanding... But i am working on it, :-)

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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Swalchy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:37 pm

I wouldn't worry too much, Royce. As long as you're not doing your public business (the actual meaning of mâla’kah/"work" in Exodus 20:9-10) then that appears to be the main brunt of the Sabbath injunctions :)
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Royce
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:41 pm

Im trying bro, no i never would do that. I have a story for you later about that stuff but i better finish up the Honda engine and get home.. Talk to you soon brother.

Rob
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Rob » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:23 am

I find this quite a dangerous topic. Torah is very important but I tend to side on the Ken Power view - it's about the deeper meaning more than the insignificant rules. I think as long as you can actively avoid as much as possible you are showing willing and respect for Yah's guidelines but we also have to look at context as you guys just did above. I am pretty sure, like Swalchy said, if I was somewhere very cold on the Sabbath Yah would not forbid me from lighting a fire - that would be dumb. lol

I think it's more important to look at why fire was mentioned, what are the spiritual and pictorial images happening there, as with everything else.

Do I cook on the Sabbath? Yes. Why? Because it's impractical not to with a family of 5. Do I think it breaks Torah when I cook on the Sabbath? No. Why? It's not "work" - It's just living.

Fact: We will break physical and sometimes spiritual Torah every day. We can't rely on our own actions to complete it, it is impossible. But it is not impossible to want to follow it, to hold it in high esteem in our hearts as the goal we want to be living. Although we are given a get out of jail card free in the form of parental unconditional love, our response shouldn't be to throw out the Torah but should be to learn from it because it is the only solid and reliable link we have to our Father, to understand what we can about who He is and what He is up to.

Basically - my view is don't get bogged down, it doesn't help.

Royce
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Royce » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:34 am

Rob, Are you saying that as long as we make an effort to follow then that is good enough? In that case Christians in all their understanding are making their best effort as they understand it to be. Come on man. You do realize men were killed by order of the father for breaking this day.

Rob
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Re: What is your take on the kindling of fire on the Sabbath

Postby Rob » Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:20 pm

No Christians reject Torah in all ways - the don't try and understand anything of it. They just try and be good people so Jesus will love them

As long as we make an effort? Of course! There isn't anything else we can do other than make an effort - unless you can say you don't go against any of the Torah ever? In that case we don't need Passover, Unleavened Bread and First Fruits, we can just do it all ourselves.

The order of Stoning was given for people who broke the Sabbath - how many people were actually Stoned? What was the point in setting up the Judges and having a system so complex to treat each of these cases that needed addressing if it was as simple as "He lit a fire just now, kill him, it's Sabbath.".

Did Yahushua break the Sabbath by picking grain in the field? No.

No - because that is silly and Yahweh isn't silly.

What is Sabbath? Firstly it's a forced practical rest from your normal work that results in you being paid. It also points forward as we know to the millennium to come. So why is it so harsh this outset punishment, death on breaking it. Because it's all done by Yah, not us. The work that is required for that day is to be relied on by Yah - trying to "earn" your way into "heaven" results in death both ways.

The spiritual picture is more important than the physical acting out - as it is with all of Torah. This doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything - the opposite - we should live it as close as we can but we should seek to understand the why's and where's rather than blindly following a translation of a line taken out of context to fill in some sort of check list of goodness.

Otherwise we end up Pharisaical, and that is not a good place to be.

So to summarise, Christianity spurns the Torah. We should embrace and love it - but we should seek first to understand the reasons why we do something before we act out why - because the acting out is a display to others that requires explanation. The explanation "Because God said so" in my book is not good enough - and if I am honest I don't believe Yah what's us living in that blind "faith based" way. He gave us Torah and the keys to unlock a lot of it and I would say that he is much more interested in us understanding why before we blindly do.

So like I said before - it's firstly about understanding, then applying to life the things that need applying - AND always re-evaluating and checking what you think something means, because most of the time there is more info or the stick might be held at the other end. ;)


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