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Can you lose it...

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Nige
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Can you lose it...

Postby Nige » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:32 pm

Noel lost the Halal Meat thread he was trying to post (more on that later I'm sure) so this is for him...

Swalchy, you mentioned 1 Sam 16:14
Now the Spirit of Yahuweh departed from Saul

Am I twisting things to much to think that 'departed' could mean avoided. As in the Ruwach was never in Saul to begin with.

I have trouble thinking that salvation, a gift from Yahweh, can be given back... or as was mentioned in the 10 V's thread, that you can be unborn from above.
If that's possible, I would love to know the criteria, cause David sure got away with a lot and no mention of him losing out :oops:

N

(Just correcting the spelling of the title - :P - Swalchy)

Rob
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Re: Can you loose it...

Postby Rob » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:47 pm

I think this is a really interesting topic personally :)

Firstly I don't think Salvation is the prize - I think that if you are trying to run home the prize is to be with Yah, which happens to come by means of Salvation. Kind of a side effect. You can walk away at any point - you have to be able to... otherwise it's not a choice and therefore love can not exist within it.

David never stopped running home - he knew that Yah knew best, his perspective was always that Yah's knowledge of Good and evil was superior to his knowledge of good and evil... so even when he screwed up - he knew it (and was very vocal).

Yah knows we mess up - but the difference is what do we do with that. Do we elevate mans knowledge of good and evil and say that we know best? Or do we realise that we have failed and that Yah rules?

Once you raise your own status above Yah's - That is when things start to go wrong... It is why Torah won't save us - but our attitude towards what Torah reveals will guide us in His knowledge of good and evil. It's shining a light on our path - and showing where we screwed up and which way to go next. As soon as we replace that light with our own - darkness descends and we get lost.

Adam put his will before Yah's, Cain was next when he killed Abel... and so it goes on. It's not about living the perfect life - but positioning yourself in the right way. We need to understand that we are thick and Yah knows better - once we get that into our heads Torah is a joy as it reveals to us the thoughts of Yah - slowly replacing our knowledge of good and evil with His. Through this we get to know, understand, trust and rely on Him more and more - it's win win :)

So yes I believe "salvation" is lost when you decide you know better... Yah has to give us the option to trust Him or ourselves.

Sorry bit of a ramble that probably didn't help - but I do find the whole thing very interesting :D

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Swalchy
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Re: Can you loose it...

Postby Swalchy » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:06 pm

Good question about the meaning of the word there Nige.

Checking the Hebrew, it is the Hebrew Suwr/סור, and according to Strong's it means "to turn aside, depart, depart from away, avoid, to be removed, to come to an end, to take away, to put away, depose, to put aside, retract from, reject, abolish, to be taken away, to be removed."

The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament says this concerning the word:
The primary meaning of the root is “to turn aside.” It appears to be a distinctively Northwest Semitic word, being attested particularly in Hebrew and Phoenician. Intransitive in the basic stem, it is accordingly frequently found with many prepositions, yielding such ideas as “turn aside from/into,” and “withdraw from.”

The verbal root occurs 191 times. In many cases it is a simple verb of motion, the act of turning aside (Ex 3:3-4; Jud 4:18; Ruth 4:1) or departing (Num 12:10).

The idea of departing could also involve spiritual issues. Thus, Samson “knew not that the Lord had departed from him” (Jud 16:20). “The Lord departed from Saul” ( I Sam 16:14; 28:16). Tragically, it was said repeatedly of Israel and its leaders that they did not depart “from the sins of Jeroboam” (II Kgs 10:31; 13:2, 6, 11; 14:24; 15:9, 18, 24, 28; 17:22; cf. 3:3). God complained against Jerusalem that the heart of his people had departed from him (Ezk 6:9). Unfortunately, those who had “departed not from following the Lord” (II Kgs 18:6) were all too few.

The root is often used of Israel’s apostasy. In many cases it is translated “turn aside/away” (e.g. Ex 32:8; Deut 9:12; 11:16). Conversely, “not to turn aside” was a way of affirming a man’s steadfastness before the Lord (I Kgs 22:43). Such a course of following strictly the will of God is frequently depicted by wedding the root to the familiar right hand-left hand motif. Thus, it was said of Josiah that he “did not turn aside to the right hand, nor to the left” (II Kgs 22:2; cf. Deut 2:27; 5:32 [H 29]; Josh 1:7).

In the Hiphil stem, the meaning “remove” is most common. Asa removes Maacah for her continued idolatry (II Chr 15:16). Hezekiah removes the places and cult objects of idolatry (II Kgs 18:4; II Chr 30:14). God’s people are urged to remove or “put away” those things that will do spiritual harm to them: strange gods (Gen 35:2), all evil (Isa 1:16), wine (I Sam 1:14), false ways (Ps 119:29), and false worship (Amos 5:21–23).
I guess the word in 1 Shamu'el 16:14: should probably be best translated as "was removed from", as that is its most common meaning.

We all come into this with the "Christian Saved" mindset as I like to call it - You say a little prayer inviting God into your life and "Woooooo! SAVED!"

It's a lot more complicated than that, and Scripture is replete with people who once relied on God, and then turned their backs on Him (Pretty sure Yahuweh laments about this constantly in the Psalms.)

I did a thorough study of this a couple of years back for my old Church's Home group meeting, and I picked up on this in Yahushua's speech to Nicodemus:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV)

If it was a case of inviting God into your life and then walla - saved for eternity, then the Greek of this verse should have "believes" (πιστευω/pisteuo - to trust) in it's aorist tense - the aorist tense indicating a past event that has continues effect on the future - and it would be translated as, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever has trusted in Him should not perish, but have eternal life..

However, the Greek word πιστευω/pisteuo is in its present, continuous, active tense, and it should actually be translated as For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever is actively placing trust inside Him should not perish, but have eternal life..

It's not just a case of placing trust into Yahuweh "once", but about trusting Him, continuously.

To break the amplification of this verse down from my Version 1 Translation:

For (γαρ - the reason that) in this manner (ουτως - way, thus and so), God (ΘΣ) dearly loved (αγαπαω - welcomed, entertained and looked fondly upon, cherished with strong affection and highly esteemed with great favour, goodwill and benevolence, was loyal to and greatly adored) the (τον) world (κοσμον - cosmos, galaxy and universe, the entire realm of man), so that (ωστε - therefore, for this reason and as a result of this) He gave (εδωκεν - granted, supplied and furnished, bestowed and delivered, committed and permitted, extended and presented) the One (τον μονογενη - only unique) Son (ο ΥΣ) so that (ινα - in order that and with the result that) all (πας - individually and collectively) those (ο) who are actively placing trust (πιστευων - reliance, obedience and confidence, certainty and guarantee, assurance and dependence) inside (εις - within) Him (αυτον) may not (μη) be destroyed (απολυηται - ruined, annihilated or rendered useless, lost or abolished, obliterated, wasted or caused to perish or pass away) but nevertheless (αλλ - notwithstanding and on the contrary) may have (εχη - hold, acquire and receive, own and possess) eternal (αιωνιον - never ending, everlasting and perpetual) life (ζωην - continued existence)."


This is how David got away with quite a lot - no matter what he did (and got punished for - let's not forget that he did get punished for what he did), David never stopped trusting Yahuweh. Saul did, and that's why Yahuweh's Spirit was removed from him.

I also saw a similar vein in 2 Timothy (OMWOHNOEZ - THE EVILZOFPAULZ!!) that the author (maybe Paul, maybe someone else) states that he has "kept (τηρεω - guarded, held on to and retained, attended to and maintained, kept an eye on and watched over, preserved and protected) the trust (πιστις - reliance, obedience and confidence, certainty and guarantee, assurance and dependence in the Trustworthy One)."

He literally "grabbed and held onto" the trust that he had in Yahuweh - he never gave it up.
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Noel
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Re: Can you loose it...

Postby Noel » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:07 pm

The following is a general observation from over 60 years of keeping my eyes open.

The loss of salvation argument tends to go with one's own understanding of the nature of sinful man. The people which I have met over the years who feel they need to work to keep themselves saved, nearly, without exception have had some sort of 'ministry' which in their own mind accumulates points which they have rationalized as out weighing the sins they do. Even if they do not admit such to themselves, that is the way they think.
Otherwise, they would have such a miserable life thinking that they were doomed virtually every minute.

There is a misunderstanding in the nature of man, sin and salvation in such thinking. They do not fully understand that in a sense, man was not responsible for the whole business of sin in the first place. The first sin was done in the heavenly realm by Satan, and man although implicated in it, was not directly responsible for the origin. To balance that out, there has to be an equally powerful and heavenly remedy again not in the direct control of man, and this is the salvation which is freely offered to us by Yahushua.

There is a misunderstanding of the fact that even if you break a tiny bit of the law, you are breaking the whole thing.There is a misunderstanding that virtually every minute of every day even the most goody two-shoes of us sins repeatedly mentally if not physically. We are born into sin and the heart of man is 'evil above all things'.

My view , ignoring the plethora of scripture which suggests that you cannot lose your salvation, is that to have even the slightest of thoughts that one's salvation is based on anything that we do once we have become born from above is nothing more than a modified form of pride which we sort of score ourselves and come to a nice warm conclusion.

Remember that every time you squeeze that lettuce in Tescos to check that it is firm, you are sinning by preferring yourself over someone else. Every time you quicken your step to get to the only free checkout with your sole lettuce to get in front of the lady with two full trolleys and five children, you are sinning. Each time you do 31 in a 30 area you have sinned. When you think you can lose your salvation, you have to believe that Yahushua's sacrifice was not quite effective enough. That is a sin in itself. You have to believe that although he 'purchased' us, somehow the goods can return themselves for a spiritual credit note of some kind. All of these are violations of the Torah.

I would doubt that you will be able to get to the age of 60 on the right side of a scoring system such as this. If you think you are ahead in the scoring right now, and you have a long way to go, then maybe just to be on the safe side you had better jump now and bank your profit, otherwise you are taking a huge risk, believe me.

N--------------------------------l

Noel
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Re: Can you loose it...

Postby Noel » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:14 pm

I keep losing my posts because I am timed out by the log in procedure. Can I do anything about this?

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Swalchy
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Re: Can you loose it...

Postby Swalchy » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:15 pm

There shouldn't actually be a time limit on the login procedure - I'll see why it's doing that!
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Matthew
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Matthew » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:18 pm

Psalm 51:

10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.


2 Timothy 2:
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


2 Timotheos 2:11-13 (Swalchy's translation):
For this reason, if or whether we die and perish together, having our souls separated from our bodies, we shall also live and continue to exist together in close association; if or whether we are consistent and steadfast, enduring and persevering, being patient and cheerfully loyal, sustained and bearing, standing our ground and awaiting in hope, submitting and remaining firm, we shall also be kings and rulers, chiefs and monarchs, coregents and commanders who reign with power and authority together in close association; if or whether we shall thoroughly and utterly deny and reject, disown and disregard, abnegate and renounce, repudiate and disavow, that Certain Specific One shall also thoroughly and utterly deny and reject, disown and disregard, abnegate and renounce, repudiate and disavow us; if or whether we do not trust, obey or place any reliance or confidence, certainty or guarantee, assurance or dependence in the Trustworthy One, that Certain Specific One remains and abides, endures and lives on, lasts and persists, stays and continues on, dwells and lodges as trustful and trustworthy, reliant and obedient, being worthy to have confidence, certainty and guarantee, assurance and dependence placed in Him, for the reason that He is not powerful or mighty, able or capable, forceful or influenceable, authorised or significant, competent or excellent enough to thoroughly or utterly deny or reject, disown or disregard, abnegate or renounce, repudiate or disavow Himself.

Nige
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Nige » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:46 pm

crumbs - turn your back on the forum for 10 mins and all that get's posted - nice work!

Nice points all - and thanks Swalchy for puling out the details on that word - looks like the spirit was there then, rather than avoided going in.

The Timothy passage Matthew posted sounds to me like it's referring to those who were never born from above - those who reject God in the first place and therefore never had the spirit of God.

The Psalm 51 passage I can't wriggle out of so easily - except to say that this is a man speaking to God saying don't take the spirit away - if I give my kids a kinder egg and they are naughty whilst nibbling it - they might say an equivalent (don't take my egg/toy away) thing, although it's not the punishment I'd actually do, that's what the rod is for, right ;)

I suppose the fact that Yahweh is outside of time gives some credence to the 'you can lose salvation' debate... he knows what direction you'll ultimately go in - which covers my concern for those people who don't T&R, then do, then decide not to anymore - gap of 40 years, lying on death bed - can that person T&R again?
Is this some sort of hockey cockey salvation - you're in, you're out, you're in again - which as Noel says, means 99.999 recurring percent of the time, I'm out...... or is it a once in a lifetime opportunity.

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Swalchy
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Swalchy » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:57 pm

I don't think it's a case of Yahuweh "taking our salvation away" - but us giving it up.

Yes, it's a gift that Yahuweh gives to us, and which He says He will never personally take it away - however, He never mentions that we can't give it back.

Just look at what Esau did - he had an inheritance, yet he gave it up to his brother.

If our "inheritance" is deliverance/salvation, are we absolutely sure we can't give it up?

I don't mean a "OMW I've sinned once I'M GOING TO HELL!" kinda thing that Christians would have us believe, but a thorough and utter denying of Yahuweh and His authority to be our deliverer.

I guess one could make the argument that if someone stops trusting Yahuweh, they never really trusted Him in the first place.

But that doesn't account for the numerous times Yahuweh laments that His family have turned their back on Him, forsaken Him, abandoned Him, denied Him, rejected Him, spurned Him, removed themselves from Him, deserted Him, withdrawn from Him, discarded Him, renounced Him, and repudiated Him.
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Matthew
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Matthew » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:50 pm

The Timothy passage Matthew posted sounds to me like it's referring to those who were never born from above - those who reject God in the first place and therefore never had the spirit of God.
I think if we read verses 1 to 10 we can assume it means that of formally being a believer but then turning away from the belief, as in rejecting God. The passage seems to encourage Timothy to be a good soldier, to have endurance, be strong and compete as an athlete. And if we continue reading it says in verses 17 and 18 there have been some "abandoning the truth," as Swalchy's translation puts it.

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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Noel » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:51 pm

These are all fair points.
And I agree that I have known people who have 'lost their faith'. But I have always assumed that they were not born from above in the first place.
The other thing which does not seem reasonable is that if Yah loves us, and if Yah wants us to be in his family and live, would he not go to the utmost lengths to secure us just as we would to secure from death our own son or daughter?

Yes, I think he would. So if you take this to it's logical conclusion, that being that Yah (being outside of time) can see the end from the beginning, and therefore knows in advance the date that a currently saved, born from above member of his family is going to make a silly choice and stop trusting him, would he not for his own good just call him back early, and just let him die the day before he could make that everlastingly appalling decision?

If not, then he is clearly not quite as loving as we would like to think.


N---------------------------------------------------------------------l

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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Noel » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:54 pm

If you need to trust and rely in an active way, then what happens if you get dementia? Not a joke this, incidentally. You can live for years without the ability to do anything mental.

N--------------------------------------------------l

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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Swalchy » Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:01 pm

Good point there Noel.

If someone really does "lose their trust in Yah", did they ever really trust Him in the first place?

However I think we get the concept of "salvation" a bit wrong - salvation is something you more or less receive upon death.

It's pretty much the "clincher" - as the author of 2 Timotheos states "I have finished the race - I have guarded the trust". He'd basically reached the "end of the road" and had still kept His trust in Yahuweh - confident that he would be delivered into heaven
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Rob » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:02 pm

The prize is always Yah and not Salvation - Salvation is means of how we are able to be with our beloved. So being "saved" or not is irrelevant - but if you love Yah, that is the real thing.

As for dementia - I see this as absolutely no problem. Yah knows you, He knew who you are and who you were. He knows. I doubt He is gonna say - "Why are you always talking about the war?! AND MY NAME ISN'T FRANK! You ain't gettin in!"...

He knows... :)

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Matthew
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Matthew » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:24 pm

Who is Yah wanting more to spend eternity with: a severely handicapped person in the care of a believer or an intellectual know-it-all believer? The answer is probably both, but I'm sure Yah has a big heart for those in real need of Him even if they're unable to know it.

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Matthew
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Re: Can you lose it...

Postby Matthew » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:28 am

Regarding 1 Samuel 28:19 "Yahweh will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Yahweh will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines."

I don't think Samuel was saying Saul will be with him in Abraham's Bosom, but will die and go to the "underworld," will fall asleep, go to the grave, etc. Samuel was at the time in the grave, but yet was in a protected place, a place for saved souls to wait.

I never quite got this passage of Scripture. Matthew 27:51-53:
And behold, look and see! The veil, curtain and drape of the Sacred Place and Temple was split and dived, torn and rend into two pieces, from the top down to the bottom, and the earth and land, ground and inhabited region was shaken and disturbed, moved and caused to tremble and quake, and the rocks and cliffs where split and divided, torn and rend into pieces. And the sepulchres and tombs, graves and burial places were opened, and many numerous and large amounts of the bodies and flesh of set-apart and cleansed ones who had fallen asleep, who had died and were in the ground, were raised up and awakened, erected and stood up, produced and brought forth from death to life, and having gone out and departed from, left and proceeded to go from out of the sepulchres and tombs, graves and burial places after His resurrection, restoration and raising up from out of the dead, they went out and entered into the set-apart and cleansed town and city and they were manifested and exhibited, shown and declared, became visible and appeared, revealed and brought into the view of many numerous and a large amount of people.
Also, regarding turning away from Yahweh in the Last Days I always enjoy reading 2 Timothy 4:3-4, reminds me of Atheists today, with many of them being ex-Christians.
For this reason, there shall be and exist a time, age and season when they shall not accept the validity of and listen to, patiently endure and put up with, bear with and sustain, hold up and receive, admit and uphold, lift up and exalt, remain constant to and keep, maintain and tolerate the sound and correct, well and good, accurate and true, pure and uncorrupted, errorless and rational, intelligent and pertinent, firm and constant, reliable, proper and righteous teaching and mandate, lesson and information, training and elucidation, precept and instruction, but nevertheless, notwithstanding and on the contrary, being tickled and feeling an itch, craving and wanting to be titillated in their ears, listening and hearing, they shall heap up and accumulate, pile up and surround, collect en masse and gather around themselves teachers and educators, instructors and explainers, mentors and trainers in accordance with and with regards to, in relation to and with respect to their own individual evil desires and cravings, lusts and longing, coveting, impulses and passions for what is forbidden, and indeed, truly and surely, they shall turn away from and stop listening to, refuse and reject, be sent away and remove, repudiate and divert, turn aside and avert from, defect and remove themselves from the hearing and listening of the reality and disclosure, expression and certainty, uprightness and dependableness, genuineness and reliability, fact, sincerity and honesty of the truth, and so they shall be turned away and deflected, directed aside and twisted, diverted and veered onto the myths and fables, fictional narrations and legends, falsehoods and purposes, designs and plans, untrue proverbs and tales, stories and made-up ideals, accounts and statements, reports and unauthenticated plots.


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