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stuck on circumcision...

Any topic about anything Scripture wise
walt
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby walt » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:07 pm


Hope you are doing ok Walt! How is your wife? Are you settled after the move?
We're doing ok, Thanks
Wife has good days & bad days, such is life.
Settled in the new place for the most part - still getting things done

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:08 pm

That's good - it's a little less cold isn't it? lower altitude?

walt
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby walt » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:15 pm

Yea, we're a little over 1km lower in altitude

Nige
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Nige » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:33 pm

Matthew - I think that your posts on here (and bridging to the other place too) are inspired - I really appreciate the thought you have put into this... my understanding has increased hugely with this whole discussion :idea: - great work!

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Matthew
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Matthew » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:46 pm

Matthew - I think that your posts on here (and bridging to the other place too) are inspired - I really appreciate the thought you have put into this... my understanding has increased hugely with this whole discussion :idea: - great work!
Nige, credit should be given to blokes like Swalcky, Rob, Mike, David (Bowie) and KP (of whom I'm almost in daily contact with). But I find thinking about this stuff while driving in my car the place where things come together, for example the question came to mind: where is the the direct command for Gentiles to be circumcised? Or should I say the unconditional command regardless of where one resides. Each time circumcision is mentioned there's a condition: 1) be Abraham's direct descendant, 2) circumcised as a baby on the 8th day after birth, 3) a non-Jew bought with money to work in the employment of a Jew, 4) or if a non-Jew wants to observe the Passover. And let's not forget how they are all linked to living in the Promised Land, Israel.

Let me quote KP's email to me from yesterday:
The bottom line with circumcision---or any other rite commanded in the Torah---is that there are two parallel meanings, one literal, the other symbolic. Comparing them side by side...

Physical performance --- Symbolic significance
To be physically done by Israel --- To be observed and heeded by devout gentiles
Not intrinsically effective --- The point Yahweh really wants to make
A sign --- The intended destination
The teaching tool --- The lesson God want's us to learn
A picture, a shadow --- The actual object, the thing casting the shadow
The metaphor --- The meaning

Christians, of course, make the same sorts of stupid mistakes concerning the few rites they were instructed to observe, baptism and communion. They're symbols of a greater truth: they don't in themselves save anyone. That doesn't detract from their importance, however. It doesn't mean we shouldn't do them; it only means that when we do, we should ponder and contemplate what they mean. We should have gotten that message loud and clear when it became impossible to literally perform (for example) the rites of the Day of Atonement. Does anybody today really think that our sins cannot be atoned because the two-goat thing can't literally be done anymore as the Torah prescribes? I don't know why some people find this so hard to see. It all seems perfectly obvious to me.

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:53 pm

Yea, we're a little over 1km lower in altitude
Woo "a little" 1km - I think we are 40m above sea level here haha

BlessYahowah

Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby BlessYahowah » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:15 am

omitted
Last edited by BlessYahowah on Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Noel
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Noel » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:01 pm

This post was designed and sent to the Yada Yahweh forum on circumcision





Starts:

This is not directed at any individual....................

A circumcision done because of prevailing medical or cultural practice in a country (e.g the USA) and not for Torah reasons, by parents who perhaps were not saved themselves, and for someone who is not in the land is not what it is all about.

'The Happen To Have Been Circumcised Brigade' may not only be missing the point, they may be helping others to miss the point as well.

How can a circumcised and pork averse person imagine that they are okay and well within the precepts of the Torah when (for example) they are prepared to let a tsunaumi of sewage into their houses each day by absorbing the spiritual, moral, criminal, sexual, and anti-God output of their televisions. Even at it's most benign, these circumcised (and therefore OK with Yah folk) are happy to waste vast amounts of their lives watching completely unprofitable things such as sporting activities, soap operas and animations along with the idol worship of the celebrities and participants which inevitably follows. And this being frequently punctuated of course by mind altering advertisements to modify their behavior for the commercial benefit of others. And they are prepared to let their children do likewise, probably the most damaging thing you can do for your offspring.

Please, any of you who fit this category either in whole, or in part, cease pointing the finger at those who happen to live in countries where circumcision is not the norm, does not happen automatically like it does where you are, and consider that maybe there are areas in your lives which themselves could do with a bit of cutting back.

The usual response to this, I find is from those who say 'well I only watch the news, and nature programes'

Oh Phull-eeze.

I do not say this from a point of view of 'Holier than thou', as I am probably the worst sinner on this forum. But I cannot put up with 'religiosity' from persons who may have got the wrong grip on reality, too heavy on ritual and too light on the disciplines within their own lives.


Noel

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Swalchy
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Swalchy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:14 pm

Nice reply Noel.

Don't know if anyone will listen, but hopefully they will.

Also, expect a fun post from me in a bit about the Hebrew words (yes -plural) that are translated as "foreigner" or "stranger".

We discovered something more enlightening today :)
TWTY website and forum Administrator.

Please respect everyone, and try to not get too heated when discussing one's point of view :)

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:59 pm

It's just a waste of words - no one is taking in anything anyone is saying anyway.

I saddens me. Things used to be so much more productive.

BlessYahowah

Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby BlessYahowah » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:26 pm

omitted
Last edited by BlessYahowah on Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:32 am

Rich, agreeing or not with whoever or whatever - how you just admitted to that was pretty damn inspiring. Trying not to sound patronising, good show! *tips hat*

Noel
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Noel » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:52 pm

Thanks Richard.
Your reply says more about you and the direction you are moving in than the subject matter itself. I have a lot of 'nose picking' problems myself, but I like to at least recognize them even if I am not strong enough to deal with them .Your response is not one of denial, (which is the usual one) and itself is most encouraging.
I got a good feeling about 'Bless Yahuweh site when I first saw it.

N-------------------l

tagim
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby tagim » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:49 am

Swalchy, having read back issues of YY and hearing somewhere you had the site up, after months of searching found it. And nice to see Richard, Noel, Walt, Rob and others. I hope to enjoy you all here as much as I have elsewhere. I see it as the best of both worlds.

Funny, this thread really hits home. I am the 76-year old uncircumcised male mentioned there and fits a description here. If it matters, the way I look at it, there is so much good data (scripture) flowing between these two places, and so many good and competing comments here and there, for the sense of my pea brain (I had no idea the pun I made when I wrote that) to postulate one way or the other is beyond my capacity to endure. The procedure is to be done at the end of this month. At 150 plus pounds, again the way I look at it, no big loss. What I have missed most in transition is those tasty spicy pork tacos!

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:05 am

Hey :D

Not to dissuade, because it is not wrong, but I think there is a lot more to this than the pro-snip guys believe there is in it. Just as food for thought I believe when you get that snip you become a barer of the signs and part of physical Israel. Remember you take on Abe's covenant, not the one with Moshe... With that response comes great responsibility, if it were me I think I would make sure I understood as much as I could and not kinda just get it done coz there's nothing to loose :)

tagim
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby tagim » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:17 pm

Rob, my "...no big loss..." was said only in jest and referred to weight, not spirit. And as I am starting anew I do, and hope forever to take all this seriously.

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:36 pm

hehe yes I got that bit :)

But no - I really don't want you to think I am being disrespectful in anyway - I know you are far more ready to take on any responsibility than I am, who am I to give advice to a man with that much life experience!

I suppose my main concern from reading the other posts in said other forum, is that people seem to be focusing on doing before understanding - I mean it's ok for most as they are already done... BUT it seems from what I have read, studied etc that Circumcision is a huge decision. It's not just following a command out of obedience, respect and love - but a statement in which you are saying "I am becoming physical Israel" and not just Spiritual. Instead of being grafted in it's like you are being absorbed. Instead of being Called Out, you have chosen to be Set Apart. Israel is the physical priesthood to the whole world, the players on the stage and the dwellers and keepers of the land. When someone - and people can - take on the sign of physical circumcision (for the Covenant of Abe) it's not just about being obedient to Yah in an act, it's a lifestyle change and a responsibility shift, and if I am honest I would say a physical location change too.

"Salvation" is not in the snip - but great great awesome responsibility is, I just wanted to give you the opportunity to dwell on that before you go the whole way, just because it seems like other than a friend who is Jewish having the snip for covenant reasons - you are the only person I know who will be physically choosing to be a sign barer, and doing it for those reasons. :) (everyone else was done by default it seems).

Like I said - I am just covering all the bases, you are far far more qualified than me to comment on anything :)

tagim
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby tagim » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:04 pm

Rob, it is more like this: One says, "...without ... you cannot participate..." another says, "... without ... you can participate..." Everyone says, "... with ... you can." It almost seems both are equally right. By having this done the last day this month, I no longer have to consider the matter. The only thing I need to deal with now is the penultimate doctor date next week for him to certify that I can be gassed and revived. I suspect there is a fear in the medical community about gassing someone my age and then failing to revive them. Trust me, my age does not make me smart. If anything can be attributed to wisdom (myself included), it is realizing how dumb I was, am, and hope not to be. And of course, I consider your remarks of nothing less than honest concern. bill

Rob
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Rob » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:23 pm

This to me is exactly what wisdom is :)
If anything can be attributed to wisdom (myself included), it is realizing how dumb I was, am, and hope not to be.


:D

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Swalchy
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Re: stuck on circumcision...

Postby Swalchy » Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:33 pm

Just to reiterate an already exhibited point - I am really having trouble finding anything that separates the Covenant Yahuweh makes with Abraham, of which circumcision was a sign, from having Yisra'el as a land-possession.

I came across this in Exodus 6:2-8:

God spoke to Moshe and said to him, “I am Yahuweh. I appeared to Abraham, to Yitschaq, and to Ya'qob, as God Almighty, but by my name Yahuweh I did not make myself known to them. I also established My covenant with them to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they lived as sojourners. Moreover, I have heard the groaning of the people of Israel whom the Egyptians hold as slaves, and I have remembered My covenant. Say therefore to the people of Israel, ‘I am Yahuweh, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgement. I will take you to be My people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am Yahuweh your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. I will bring you into the land that I swore to give to Abraham, to Yitschaq, and to Ya'qob. I will give it to you for a possession. I am Yahuweh.’ ”

I also have yet to find somewhere where Yahuweh specifically says that Gentiles (Goyim) should be circumcised. I haven't even found the Hebrew words together in the same sentence!

There are "strangers" and "foreigners" mentioned along with circumcision: however these aren't designations for all Gentiles, and in fact can also be applied to Abraham's physical descendants.

The word "foreigner" translates the Hebrew word toshab/תושב and it means "inhabitant, land dweller, resident". It describes someone who isn't a physical member of the tribe whose land he's in, but still lives there. In such instances where Yisra'el is the land in question, a "toshab" is a non-physical member of Yisra'el, but is actually living in the land of Yisra'el.

The word translated as "stranger" is the Hebrew gare/גר, and according to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon, a gare is a "proselyte", a convert to Judaism who also lived in Yisra'el.


And welcome to the forums tagim. :)

Glad you joined!
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Please respect everyone, and try to not get too heated when discussing one's point of view :)


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