What if they were circumcised in heart but not flesh? Still not allowed?Does anyone know why Ezekiel 44:6-8 is always quoted by the "Gentiles should be circumcised anyway" crowd?
And say to the rebellious house, to the house of Yisra'el, "Thus says 'Edonay Yahuweh, 'O house of Israel, enough of all your abominations, in admitting foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and flesh, to be in my sanctuary, profaning my temple, when you offer to me my food, the fat and the blood. You have broken my covenant, in addition to all your abominations. And you have not kept charge of my set-apart things, but you have set others to keep my charge for you in my sanctuary.' "
Well, to quote a popular phrase "Peter isn't Scripture".Concerning the exclusion of all who aren't priests, doesn't Kefa tell us that we are all priests? And don't those around the throne echo that in the Revelation? "For You [Yahushua] have made us to be a kingdom of priests..." So then, if the requirement for circumcision applies only to priests, and all of us who trust in and rely on Yahuwah have been made priests by His Son, then as priests we who are male are required to be circumcised.
It's fine for someone who's already been circumcised to say that if they were in the same position with those of us who aren't circumcised, that they'd get circumcised. Whether being circumcised is required or not is not so much a big deal for people in such a position - as you're fine either way. If it's required - Great! Already done. If it's not required - Great! It doesn't matter.I am very grateful that my parents had me circumcised as a baby. But if they had not, I would still do my dead-level best to get circumcised so that I could be in compliance with our Father's wishes.
That depends on how you view the Covenant of Circumcision though. As has been discussed at length in this thread, physical circumcision and having a possession in the physical land of Yisra'el go hand in hand - something only offered to Abraham and his physical descendants who go through Yitschaq and Ya'qob - for the Yisra'elites. Why do you think the Muslims are so rampant with their circumcision as well? Because they claim to be the "True descendants of Abraham" and want to replace the Jews as "God's chosen people" and steal the land of Yisra'el for themselves. It's Replacement Theology at its peak - capitulated in the desire of non-Yisra'elites to become circumcised.For if sin is the transgression of the Torah (and it is exactly that, according to Yahuchanon), then for me to refuse circumcision is to willfully transgress the Torah, which is by definition sin. Because the soul that sins shall die, I would think it obvious what I should do if I would see life.
Observing the Sabbath and circumcision really aren't related. Up until 5 years ago, I constantly broke the Sabbath law, and according to Exodus 31:14, I have already been "cut off" for doing so.The same holds true for observing the Sabbath and for refraining from doing the things He forbids us to do. It has nothing to do with works-based salvation. It has to do with obedience and fidelity. Would I overlook my wife's adultery just because I don't want her to think she has to earn my love? Nonsense! One has nothing at all to do with the other.
Sorry Richard, but no one has even quoted a single word of Paul's yet in this thread. All that's been quoted is the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms.And I personally don't care what Paul had to say about anything because I do not believe that he ever met the Master Yahushua. I have only his word on the matter, which I do not accept.
So, here's the question: is circumcision required for salvation, or not?This also came to my mind today, that those who say "circumcision isn't necessary for salvation, but Gentiles should do it anyway", aren't they, like Paul whom they hate so much, also disagreeing with the Brethren Pharisees who are recorded in Acts 15:1 as saying, But certain men came down from Yahuwdea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moshe, you cannot be saved.”?
Either they these men were right, and it is necessary for salvation, or Paul was correct to combat their false teaching. There's no middle ground on this part of the question: it's either necessary, or it isn't
My purpose with the caps is to place emphasis on the certain parts - I guess bold would be the "more virtual correct" method huh.http://www.thewaytoyahuweh.com/translat ... #chapter15
The fact that CW gives no reason at all to state that "Paul interrupted Peter" (his words are actually "But then, according to the text, Paul stood up and interrupted Peter. We know this because Shim’own wouldn’t consider "trying to trap God." "), other than CW's opinion of what Peter "wouldn't" say. This isn't a reason, and to state it as such is false.
1. Paul isn't mentioned by name at all.
2. The text continues straight on, going from verse 9 to verse 10. No break in meaning or the person speaking. If Peter is the one speaking in verse 8-9, it's also him who is speaking in 10-11.
3. If Luke wanted to let us know that Peter is interrupted by Paul, he knows the way to do so as proved by Acts 26:24:
However (δε), as he [Paul] (αυτου) is speaking in defence (απολογουμενου) of these things (ταυτα), Phestus (ο Φηστος) affirms (φημι) in a great (μεγαλη) voice (τη φωνη), "You are insane (μαινη), Paul (Παυλε)! The (τα) extent (πολλα) of your (σε) education (γραμματα) is twisted (περιτρεπει) into (εις) insanity (μανιαν)!
The whole of Acts 15 is actually Peter agreeing with Paul's stance on circumcising Goyim. This is twisted in QP to make it say the exact opposite.
The same thing is done with 2 Peter 3:14-16.
And I know what Matt said was quite bold, but can we all calm down, and not start using capital letters for the whole of words. On the internet that's pretty much the equivalent of shouting, and I'd really like to keep this place as tranquil and harmonious as possible
Thanks to all of you. This is quite the interesting thread, and I wouldn't want to start spoiling it
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