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Circumcision Questions

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Lassie1865
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Circumcision Questions

Postby Lassie1865 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:00 pm

I often hear the statement: “One is grafted into ‘spiritual Israel’ through trusting Yahowsha; one does not need to become ‘Jewish’ to be part of Yahuwah’s family.”

My thoughts are these:

Reality is duality — there is a spiritual side and a physical side; one cannot exist without the other.

Yahuwah’s family consists of Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob. These descendants include ALL persons who are physically BORN into the family, non-Hebrew persons who wish to JOIN the family (Egyptians who left Egypt with the Exodus), and non-Hebrew persons who are PURCHASED by the family. These persons (males) must be physically circumcised to remain part of the family.

Yahowsha is the physical ‘Seed of Abraham’; Yahowsha PURCHASED us with His blood; therefore, does that not make us PHYSICAL members of Yahuwah’s family? Did Yahuwah not say that anyone who would wish to participate in HIS PASSOVER be physically circumcised? Therefore, are we not also required to be physically circumcised to participate in Yahowsha’s sacrifice? Does the indwelling of the Set-Apart Spirit dissolve our physical entity?

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Swalchy
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Swalchy » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:23 pm

Does this mean you're going to be getting circumcised? If it's a necessity, then surely everyone needs to be doing it, not just the males. Unless we males are considered inferior to the females and need an "extra assurance" from Yahuweh in order to be a part of His family.


There's also a lengthy topic on the subject in the General Section of the Forum - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; :)

Most questions that people've had about the subject are in there, as well as answers to them :)

I also disagree that the spiritual and physical side can't live without each other. So many people in the world only have the physical side living - their spiritual side is completely dead. And obviously the soul can live without a physical body, the "soul" being the non-physical/spiritual side of our being.

And yes, Yahushua did purchase us with our blood. But not our physical bodies. He purchased our souls. So we are most certainly a part of Yahuweh's family.

However, I am still a Goy/Gentile. I haven't been magically changed into a physical descendant of Abraham. I am not a Jew/Israeli, the only true physical descendants/seed/progeny/offspring of Abraham.

As stated in the other thread, being physically circumcised is not about being a member of Yahuweh's family - it's about being considered a physical Jew who possess the land of Yisra'el as his home land. That is the "his people" whom the uncircumcised Jew is "cut off from". That is why "foreigners and strangers" (again, see the other thread) who indwelt the land of Yisra'el had to be circumcised. If you want to live in the land of Yisra'el legally according to Yahuweh, you have to be circumcised, which is the mark of being a physical Jew who has said to Yahuweh, "Yes, I accept your covenant regarding having Yisra'el as my home, and being a sign bearer."

A Goy/Gentile is the beneficiary of the signs that the Jews/Israeli's were to bear and proclaim - we're not the sign bearers ourselves.

As stated in the previous thread: there is no verse in Scripture (Torah, Prophets, and Psalms) that says "Goy/Gentile" and "be circumcised" together.
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Matthew
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Matthew » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:39 am

Lassie, the Disciples and Paul were right, if you're going to carry the signs as a means to earn your salvation then you have to carry all the signs.

People try argue that we (non-Jews not living in Israel) must literally keep the Torah, like being circumcised, keeping the Feasts, etc., but they forget there are specifics (rules and regulations) involved. Have a look at Numbers 9, it highlights the importance of keeping Passover exactly as Torah specified. People who touched a dead body or were away during the Feast of Passover had to celebrate it a month later. They couldn't just keep it wherever they were, and you'll notice this stressed in Deuteronomy 12. Therefore we cannot physically participate in the Feast of Passover; to even attempt to keep it literally now would be deemed sinful. However, we can keep it spiritually and what we do now, like taking the day off work and having fellowship, is simply doing it for remembrance sake. A noble thing nonetheless.

Genesis 17:12 clearly says "foreigners bought with money." Yahshua's blood in this case is a spiritual concept. The Torah is a picture; it represents Yahweh and the life of Yahshua. For example, what's the association of touching a dead body and having to celebrate Passover in the second month in Numbers 9? Well, the Jews killed Yahshua and therefore missed the first opportunity, hence they'll have a second opportunity to keep the Passover. Not that Yahshua will die again, but that they'll recognise Him the second time round. A very spiritual and prophetic passage, one in which we'll get more benefit from it by understanding that than by trying to keep it literally.

Also, please don't get me wrong. If a temple existed and we were called to celebrate the Passover in Jerusalem I would ensure all the males in my family were physically circumcised. Even if this was the case we would need to ask the question "what does it mean."

As you can see I am in fact taking the Torah very literally.

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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby danshelper » Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:19 pm

Having the sign doesn’t mean anything – if we don’t have the substance.

The substance is righteousness, and it is IN us through Yahushua.

In our culture, many have the sign of marriage on their finger, but they may not have the substance – life-long sacrificial love, faithfulness, devotion. There are many adulterers with rings on their fingers, just as there were many circumcised who envied, tricked, betrayed and bore false witness about the Messiah.

We take the sign of marriage (the ring) before we actually have the substance, because the substance is manifest and grows day by day, year after year. The sign is a token of commitment, but it is not the actual thing. The actual thing, the substance, is the inner quality that governs the attitudes and actions. The sign/ring can be a reminder and a very limited aide when experiencing temptation, but the sign is not the substance.

Customs and traditions of wedding ceremonies differ throughout history and among cultures – the signs are different but the substance is not. The substance of life-long sacrificial love, faithfulness and devotion is what makes marriage marriage.

Since His life, death, resurrection, ascension and Spirit out-pouring, Yahushua IN us is the both the sign and substance. 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13, John 14:23, Luke 17:21, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, Jeremiah 31:33.

Since we are already in the renewed relationship, the focus should be on living out and manifesting the substance within us. Once married, people do not obsess over the ring or sign, but they strive to grow together and be fruitful in the relationship.

Our reconciled relationship with YHWH through Yahushua is inner/spiritual (John 4:24) and our citizenship is in heaven (Philippians 3:20). The Spirit of Truth in us guides and teaches us so that the substance – righteousness through Yahushua – is manifest in our thoughts, words, attitudes and actions. This is the true sign of the renewed relationship and it is so much better (Hebrews 7:22, 8:6)!!

Rob
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Rob » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:46 pm

I really like that DH :D

great thoughts :)

Lassie1865
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Lassie1865 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:41 pm

I don't know . . .

Think about it. The Egyptians who "joined themselves" to the sons of Jacob during the Exodus were considered just as much a part of "Israel" as the natural born sons; they all had the same instructions, and the same obligations. They were all considered "Hebrews", "Israel". What about Ruth? Did she become a "Hebrew" through adoption?

Rob
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Rob » Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:49 pm

The Egyptians males would have been snipped before entering the land still, as all males who were not were. Personally I don't see the problem with people becoming part of Israel if you choose to join yourself to them, but in doing so you are a sign barer and your job is to live in the land and perform Torah for all the world to see.

I am sure they were considered Israelites before the actual date of their snip, just as Ruth was when she declared her loyalty.

Physically circumcision for males means you are physical Israel, which means your responsibility is to the physical acting out of what that means. Anyone can be taken in (male or female), but in doing that they must understand what they are signing up for as to say.

my opinion of course lol

Lassie1865
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Lassie1865 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:58 pm

Another problem is that most of us do not know whether we may actually be descendants of one of the 12 Tribes of Israel or not . . .

Rob
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Rob » Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:43 pm

yes - but I believe, like Mike and Jane, that information will surface some how, whether it be physically or spiritually.

danshelper
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby danshelper » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:28 pm

This is an interesting website (judianity) with a more clarified and balanced view (in my humble opinion – which is certainly sometimes defective but always sincere!) on the issue of circumcision, Galations and Paul: http://www.gentiles-and-circumcision.info/index.html

Have any of you come across it before?

Rob
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Rob » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:05 pm

interesting I will have to have a look :) nice find

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Swalchy
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Swalchy » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:12 pm

I've read the website, and it more or less confirms what we've been saying in the two threads here on TWTY - circumcision is for native born Yisra'elites, and not for every male everywhere, unless they want to.
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Noel
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Noel » Tue May 24, 2011 7:33 pm

Just had another thought about those who say you can't have a relationship with Yah unless you are circumcised.

Abraham did. He clearly had a close relationship with Yah for 24 years until he was circumcised at the age of 99.

N--------------l

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Swalchy
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Swalchy » Tue May 24, 2011 8:32 pm

We could probably add onto that a long list of uncircumcised persons from pre-Abrahamic times.

Thanks for point that out Noel - I had forgotten that it was a while before Abraham was circumcised after he came to have a relationship with Yah.

Really, it was only until Abraham having a son came into it that the whole circumcision thing was brought in by Yahuweh :)
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walt
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby walt » Wed May 25, 2011 3:15 pm

Just had another thought about those who say you can't have a relationship with Yah unless you are circumcised.

Abraham did. He clearly had a close relationship with Yah for 24 years until he was circumcised at the age of 99.

N--------------l
He also didn't keep the "Feasts", so does that mean we don't need to observe them to have a relationship with Yah?

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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Swalchy » Wed May 25, 2011 7:48 pm

Well technically, we can't observe the feasts as Yahweh instructs Yisra'el in the Torah.

Knowing that fact, does that mean no one can have a relationship with Yah, as following the feast instructions are literally impossible?

To bring this back to the discussion on circumcision, I still haven't yet found Yahuweh saying that each and every Gentile/Goy has to be circumcised in order to be "saved", which is this whole discussion is about, so I'll state the question again:


Does a male person need to have his penis physically circumcised in order to be considered a member of Yahuweh's family?


I have found the answer to be "no", as practically every mention of physical circumcision comes with the land of Yisra'el attached to it, or doing something specifically in the physical Temple service; both of which aren't anything to do with Gentiles.
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Noel
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Noel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:41 pm

Hello Stephen

After listening to CW last night who is even more outspoken on circumcision and Paul than he used to be, I decided to re read the whole of this thread, and including the end bits which I had missed before.

There was really a good discussion here, and I think we came out with the right answer. In the process we have decided to give CW a bit of a miss for a bit, because although he has got most things right, I feel he is getting more and more legalistic. Also we found KP and danshelper very helpful too with their perspectives.

In re reading the thread, somewhere you said that you had further thoughts on this subject, (based on the Torah) but I was not sure whether you had actually expressed all your comments by the end of things. Did you have any more to say?

N-----------l

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Swalchy
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Swalchy » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:43 pm

Hi Noel - I honestly can't remember what I was referring to with that! It may've been something similar to my statement that there is nowhere in the Torah where a Goy/Gentile is commanded to be circumcised if he wasn't going to be living in the land of Yisra'el. I'd have to re-read everything and hope it jogs my memory as to what it was I was talking about :)
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Noel
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Noel » Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:44 pm

Never mind. Something else also occurred to me. In that we will either die or be gathered up before we meet Him, then actually our bodies are irrelevant in that they will not be the same ones as are able to move at the speed of thought, and are only shell to carry us through this temporary life. Therefore whether we have certain bodily attributes (or otherwise) is at that level anyway, meaningless.

n

Rob
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Re: Circumcision Questions

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:59 pm

You are right I think Noel... What we have to remember is everything physical in Torah has a spiritual meaning. Doing anything physically wont 'save' us we know that but it points to the spiritual of how. We need to be circumcised to be 'saved' that is for sure - but the circumcision has to be of the heart and not of the penis, it has to be spiritual and not physical - because like you said - it's all temporary.


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