I have not studied this subject, so I do not know more about it than the average guy on this site.Do you believe this prophecy was fulfilled in Pauls time?
Seeing as though no one is arguing such a point at all, this needn’t’ve been askedIs Allah, the same God we serve, only called by another name??? What about Budda, or maybe Zues???
Good for you. See above comment.This is an important question, that we all need to take some time to consider. Have you heard it before? I have.
Yahuweh. Quite obvious.Acts 17:22,23 [snip]
Who is Sha'ul proclaiming to them
“False apostle” that “Yeshua warned about”… where, exactly? The Greek term αποστολος, in the singular, is never found on the lips of the Messiah. Ever. If your words above are a reference to Revelation 2:2, the word is αποστολους, the plural, and it says that the Ephesians found these people (not ‘this person’) whom λεγοντας εαυτους αποστολους (“say they are emissaries”) ‘to be false’. Contrast this to Acts 20:17-38, where the Ephesian Ekklesia members weep in grief over Paul, whom they’d never see again. They didn’t consider him anything other than a friend and a bringer of the good news.I know that most people believe Sha'ul was simply trying to reach these people at their own level, in light of his statement that he "becomes all things to all people. But because we are searching for the false apostle that Yeshua warned about, I thougth this deserved some further research.
Seeing as though Paul doesn’t say that the people were “already worshipping [Yahuweh] in ignorance” (as whatever-the-hell translation you’re using has the words in Acts 17:23 saying, a complete bastardisation of the Greek), his quote of two poems was to show evidence of the fact that all people “seek God”, to “feel their way towards Him” and “find Him”, with even polytheistic persons proving such a thing (even if they get it massively wrong), with Paul bringing forth something they all would know, and would even agree with him on.Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring'.
But thou art not dead: thou livest and abidest forever, For in thee we live and move and have our being. (Epimenides' Cretica)
Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken. For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity. Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus. For we are indeed his offspring... (Phaenomena 1-5).
Here we see that Sha'ul is in Athens and he comes to a pagan alter that has an inscription to an unknown god. These people were immersed in Greek culture, and philosophy. So when Sha'ul tells the people that he knows the unknown god, and is going to reveal him, and then quotes a famous Greek Poem about Zeus, who does it sound like he is worshipping?
No, and Paul gives absolutely no indication that this was what he thought. Again, he preaches against their practices in Athens – he doesn’t condone or promote them.Could the alter that they were sacrificing on belong to YHWH?
You’ve provided two quotes – two! Plus one isn’t even known exactly which playwright is being quoted! What would be the point of quoting Scripture to a bunch of Greeks on the Areopagus? It would be as pointless as quoting Scripture to educate an Atheist – he isn’t going to give you the time of day. Not surprisingly, as soon as Paul started talking about the resurrection of the dead (a belief that was considered completely ludicrous by the Greeks), that is exactly when their interest in Paul started to wane (Acts 17:32). Paul didn’t have nearly enough time to start quoting Scripture to them for their education: this wasn’t a synagogue; there weren’t people there whom would’ve known who Moses or Isaiah were, so to start quoting from them immediately wouldn’t have helped any, as is obvious from the listeners mocking once the resurrection of the dead was mentioned.Why, out of all the beautiful scriptures and patriarchs that he could quote from to teach the people about YHWH, does he continuously quote Greek poets and playwrights about Zeus?
Firstly, Acts 9:5 wasn’t written or spoken by Paul, so Paul couldn’t’ve “quoted” anything (Luke wrote Acts, for the record).In Acts 9:5 and 26:14 he quotes Euripides play Bacchae, about the divine son of Zeus.
I could find no place to back up these line numbers given - it’s line 795 in the Bacchae; line 1624 in the Agamemnon (original Greek – the Harvard Classics English publication actually has it down as line 1909 (http://www.bartleby.com/8/1/4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)); and lines 94-95 in Pythian 2.The quote is about kicking against the goads, and can be found on line 790. It can also be found in Pindar's odes, Pythian 2 line 94, and Aeschylus's Agamemnon line 1904.
Again, so what? Does Scripture have anything to say about the people of Crete? No, it doesn’t, and Epimendes’ description of the people of Crete was pertinent to show the fact that they were indeed “rebellious, idle talkers and deceivers”.Titus 1:12 Even one of the Cretans’ own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons” — 13 and it’s true! Here we have the very reason that the word cretan is synonymous with liar. Besides the obvious problems with this verse, we have another example of Sha'ul quoting a greek poem by Epimenides about Zeus being eternal.
He quotes a phrase which had become a proverb. It’s also very true – Bad company does corrupt good character – and it doesn’t matter who it was that said it.In Corinthians 15:33 he quotes Menander of Athens when he says "bad company corrupts good character".
I couldn’t find a single place that could back up this statement. I did however find a place that confirms that this is a made up Budda quote - http://www.fakebuddhaquotes.com/work-ou ... on-others/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; You can also check the translation of Mahaparinibbana-sutta at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, where again you can confirm that Budda said nothing remotely similar to Paul’s words in Philippians 2:12 (I also couldn’t find the term “salvation” in the translation; go figure).In Philippians 2:12 he quotes the Mahaparinibbana-sutta 2.33; 6:10; from the Pali Canon, with "work out your own salvation".
Here is a link to an English translation of Andria Acts 4: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Ascene%3D1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;1 Timothy 5:4 was taken from Publius Terentius Afer (Terence) (Latin comedy writer) 190 BC: "But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to show piety at home." Andria Act IV
The only thing that should be said is that out of all the words written by Paul, and those that record several of his speeches, he only quotes “pagan” authors a grand total of five times, and two of these five were common proverbs and so not “quotes”, bringing the total to three. How people can accuse Paul of “continuously quoting” from plays “about Zeus” is quite simply baffling and beggers belief. Paul quotes the Tanakh nearly 200 times – it is the Tanakh that Paul “continuously quotes”, not “Greek poets and playwrights”.what can be said about this?
Seeing as though most 'translations' aren't new 'translations' just "Revised versions" of previous "versions" which all mainly go back to the KJV, I really don't care what they say. I care what the Greek says, and it doesn't use the term "worship" in Acts 17:23, in either instance where translations don't make clear the distinction between the two Greek words σεβασμα and ευσεβεω.I see that you believe no other bible translation is quite up to par with yours. Any time there is debate over a verse you say all the other translations are wrong.
Do you yourself understand Greek? If no, then you're in no position to make an accurate assessment of who can or can't do so either; whether it's I or someone else.I do see that you are quite intelligent, but what I don't see is that your understanding of the Greek is in any way superior to the translators before you.
See above comments. You're also ignoring the fact that Paul preaches against the Athenian practices, therefore making this altar of there's moot.Here are a few translations below, that all say these people were worshipping the same god that Paul is declaring to them.
Your proof of this is what, exactly? You've not shown any.It is your research that is lacking here swalchy, not mine.
I'm thorough - that's all. I also don't assume things about people - unfortunately, knowing how people think or what they will do is not a skill I have.You nit pick every silly thing you can think of, because you assume that nobody will see through what you are doing.
No, the numbers are set long before someone will translate the text. I took the line numbers from the Greek text and double checked it against English translations thereof (for example the Agamemnon: I checked the English of Herbert Weir Smyth and that of the Harvard classics - neither gave the line as 1904).Like the line numbers for example, obviously depending on who translated the text the numbers will vary.
No, they weren't. You have provided no source at all for where you got these line numbers from. I made sure to check two or more different places (looking for the 'two witnesses' required by Scripture), and nothing backed up what you had down.So both our number were correct
I provided two sources that show that Davids was wrong, and theologically motivated, to translate it how he has it.Again we see this with the Buddhist text. Rhys Davids translates it with salvation, Walsh and Thanissaro translate it slightly differently.
Feel free to provide the Greek translation of the Digha Nikaya that Paul would've had access to.Which it makes no difference how the original Pali translates into english, it matters how it was translated into Greek at the time Paul used it.
Correct. I don't care about the Digha Nikaya, especially as I have far better things to be doing. You have not provided any source for your line numbers, nor much else.If you cannot find the text, and you really care, try studying Digha Nikaya and focus on the last words of Tathagata. Which I know you don't.
Provide the source for the line number then. It's quite simple.As for the quote from terence, again there are many translations, If you went to college I am sure you are are aware of C. E. Freeman, or Arthur sloman.
I've been kind to people like you for many years now, and being "kind" really doesn't get through. I'm pointing out where you're wrong, which is the kindest and most loving thing anyone can do for you.I am not going to continue discussing things with you if you can't at least attempt to be kind.
"People need to start switching on their God-given brains, or just stop flapping their decrepit and moronic mouths"
"The obvious fact that you lack the necessary intelligence to actually research things properly"
Things like the above, really are unnecessary.
"Discussing" these things requires people to provide proof of what they say. Most people are just regurgitating what others have said which aggravates me intensely. It shows a lack of desire to find the truth for oneself, and just shows that humans become sheep far too easily.And even if it makes you feel better, it sets a very poor example for the one you serve. I have read quite a few of your post now, and it seems that you think everyone finally sees how right you are at the end, but what it looks like from here is that they just decide it is pointless to continue discussing things with you.
Thanks, sestir. I'll edit it to just show the facts.Thank you both for very well researched contributions! (one conservative and one speculative but still)
Swalchy, I believe you will want to edit away a few things from that post Dec 19 and try to figure out what went wrong. Hepzibah is right in that it is most important to be kind, and we have to understand that web forums always contain unchallenged theses that are false, unless they are empty. Almost nobody will, after reading this thread, hold you to be a guarantor for the veracity of our comments.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests