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τινα - 1 Cor 5:1 [adult content] Who did it?

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sestir
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τινα - 1 Cor 5:1 [adult content] Who did it?

Postby sestir » Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:07 pm

1 Corinthians 5:1
Ολως ακουεται εν υμιν πορνεια
Actually, whoredom is heard of among you

και τοιαυτη πορνεια ητις ουδε εν τοις εθνεσιν
and such whoredom as is not even in the nations

ωστε γυναικα τινα του πατρος εχειν.
... ?

It is usually translated: so that a certain [man] has the father's wife.
This accords with vulgate & peshitta but I am troubled by two things.

1. In the traditional interpretation, του πατρος posses γυναικα as a wife, but for all I have heard usually the possessed object gets mentioned right before the genitive-inflected noun, so that του πατρος owns or possesses τινα rather than γυναικα. If γυναικα is really the wife of του πατρος in this clause, why would anybody want to insert τινα between them?
Also, would not a greek speaker read/hear ωστε γυναικα τινα ... and immediately conclude that this is about 'a woman who ...' or 'a certain woman ...' or 'some woman ...' or 'any woman ...', so that they would be surprised to later find out that τινα was a man, if they would ever find out?

2. Does not τινα have to be masculine nominative? As a beginner I just relied on the various forms Perseus' word-study tool provides, and it had masculine accusative and neuter nominative, but no masculine nominative. Should I expect there to exist additional forms?

Are these alternative translations unlikelier?
ωστε γυναικα τινα του πατρος εχειν.
a) like a woman who's father has [her].
b) so that a certain woman the father of has. -> so that a certain woman is taken by [her] father.

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Re: τινα - 1 Cor 5:1 [adult content] Who did it?

Postby Swalchy » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:22 pm

τινα is placed between the γυναικα (or την γυναικα in Papyrus 46) and του πατρος for emphasis on the fact that it's την γυναικα that's in question.

Also, due to the fact that την γυναικα is a definite object, whereas τινα is an indefinite object would mean that the Greek speaker would have no issue with the fact that την γυναικα is first possessed by the πατρος, and not that the πατρος is in the possession of the τινα.

Also, for it to mean "certain woman", the τινα would have to come before γυναικα, rather than after (it would also be considered an adjective, not a pronoun :)).

There is such a thing as a "masculine nominative", but it wouldn't work for τινα in this verse, as everything in the accusative (from ωστε onward) is in explanation of everything in the nominative (Ολως ... ητις).

The first section is "There is reported ... a sexual immorality of such a kind", with everything here being in the nominative case then having their explanation of those in the accusative case "...someone has his fathers wife".

Either way, the traditional translation is perfectly fine (woodenly it would be "so that the wife someone of his father he has" = "so that someone has his father's wife", which one is to assume is the persons step-mother, rather than his birth mother, as it would be a lot easier to state "someone has married their own mother!" compared to what is seen in 1 cor 5:1 :)), and your two alternative translations are very unlikely, I'm afraid =/
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Please respect everyone, and try to not get too heated when discussing one's point of view :)

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sestir
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Re: τινα - 1 Cor 5:1 [adult content] Who did it?

Postby sestir » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:16 am

Also, for it to mean "certain woman", the τινα would have to come before γυναικα, rather than after (it would also be considered an adjective, not a pronoun :)).

There is such a thing as a "masculine nominative", but it wouldn't work for τινα in this verse, as everything in the accusative (from ωστε onward) is in explanation of everything in the nominative (Ολως ... ητις).
A good lot of thanks Swalchy!
It would have taken me weeks to figure this out.


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